Did I miss something in IFR class??

[N6784N]

I filed IFR last Friday to fly from PHF in Virginia to FME in Maryland. The previous week I filed and recieved a amended route so when I filed Friday I filed the same route they already gave me. I called ground to pick up my flight plan and the controller gave me the departure procedure, alt to climb to and alt to expect as well as freq and squak code but never said anything about my route, not even "cleared to FME as filed" or anything. I assumed they did accept my route and it was severe clear the whole route so I didn't worry too much about it. I taxid to the runway and did my runup expecting to here my actual clearance into the system because at this point she  only read my flight plan. I never recieved a clearance through the whole flight. Sooooo!!! what happened here??? thnx for any info

[FlyDave]

Personally, if I was departing on an IFR flight plan I would have asked the controller for a specific clearance that included everything  in a standard IFR clearance (severe VFR OR IMC) to include:

Cleared to

Route of flight (or as filed)

Altitude

Frequency

Transponder code

Did you fly an ODP/SID and the route you filed as well as an instrument approach?

[KJATCt]

I would guess the controller made a mistake. If you don’t get a clearance limit (cleared to XXX). Make sure you ask for clarification.

[piperpainter]

That is the first thing I expect to hear. And if you don't hear it ask for it. It never hurts to ask!

[Jeff_S]

Yeah, someone dropped the ball. If you don't get a clearance limit you have no instructions on what to do if you go NORDO so they don't know what to expect. Granted, it seems like the whole thing was assumed by ATC, but you should always confirm your clearance limit if you don't get one.

[N6784N]

yea I think my thought was since so much has been changing lately with the atc system that some rules got changed on me since my last instrument check. anyway i made the same flight again today and this time i got a actual route and release time so im happy again

[Immelman]

That sounds very strange! I've never heard that either. Even in pop up clearances they first thing they start out with when actually converting me to IFR is "cleared to <clearance limit>".

My motto with ATC issues is when in doubt, ask!

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: KJATCt

I would guess the controller made a mistake. If you don’t get a clearance limit (cleared to XXX). Make sure you ask for clarification.

[rbharvey]

Not to be flip, but yes you did miss something in IFR class... You should never enter controlled airspace without a clearance limit. While the indiv delivering the clearance surely messed up, you alone should not of put your wheels in the well without a valid clearance.

Again, not being ugly, but that could of been a really bad issue had it been true IMC and you ended up NORDO or with some other issue had your true route of flight of flight been something completely foreign to you and not expected (ie you flying into another aircraft cause the controller thought you should be going somewhere else)

Bottom line, there is nothing ever in an IFR clearance that is supposed to be guessed or assumed by the PIC

Bob 

[N6784N]

I dont think i missed the fact that i need a clearance limit before entering controlled airspace but like i said it was severe clear and even when they cleared me to takeoff i figured they would clear me in the air since it wasnt actual instrument conditions. that being said i did mess up because i assumed and would have done things differently if i was going to hit actual conditions. anyway i learned my lesson and wont let it happen again.

[craigsteffen]

(Just got my instrument ticket Monday, so take this with a lot of salt...)

I agree with the rest of the thread.  The briefer screwed up; you had a clearance, but they didn't read it out to you.  You acted as if you had one, which is fine in this case, because you did. 

What I would add is that if you have a squawk code other than 1200, then by definition you have a clearance, and vice versa. 

Now, if you DIDN'T have a clearance, when you called Center and said "with you" with no other explanation, they'd start asking questions.  If they acted normally, then at least they thought you had a clearance. 

Your "clearance limit" is the amount of time from when they think you took off plus your estimated time en route, which if you have a communications failure is the earliest time you're allowed to start an approach at your destination airport.  I think that's right, anyway. 

 

 

[rob]

Quote: craigsteffen

What I would add is that if you have a squawk code other than 1200, then by definition you have a clearance, and vice versa. 

[danb35]

Quote: craigsteffen

Your "clearance limit" is the amount of time from when they think you took off plus your estimated time en route, which if you have a communications failure is the earliest time you're allowed to start an approach at your destination airport.  I think that's right, anyway. 

[carqwik]

Controllers mess up on occasion too...so it's always best to query them if you think you're missing something. IFR is a two-way street....no one is perfect.

 

[FlyDave]

Quote: danb35

No, the clearance limit is a point in space, not a point in time.  If ATC gives me "Mooney 48Q, cleared to HVS as filed, climb and maintain 7000, squawk 4321", then HVS (my destination) is the clearance limit.  In my experience (and I just got my ticket a year ago, so it isn't a lot), I'm virtually always cleared to my destination, but they can clear you to some intermediate point with an instruction to expect further clearance at some time in the future: "Mooney 48Q, cleared present position direct VITTI, hold as published at VITTI, expect further clearance at 1630Z, time now 1555Z".  In that case, VITTI is the clearance limit.

[jlunseth]

Well, everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said except for this.  Whenever you get a clearance that does not have all the ingredients of an IFR clearance, it may simply be a mistake on the part of the controller, or it may be that the controller and ATC are actually thinking that you asked for a VRF clearance, and they are giving you a VFR clearance.  Practices vary from one ATC area to another, but if someone were to request a VFR clearance to shoot practice approaches, they would get a readback something like the one you got.  Typically it would include squawk code and frequency, and sometimes they would give you an altitude if they are going to have to vector you out of a Class Bravo airspace.  I have received clearances just like the one you got, but for VFR Flight Following or practice VFR approaches, complete with an "climb and maintain 'x'" altitude, and "expect 'x' altitude" 10 minutes after departure. 

So it is entirely possible, if you don't get a "cleared to" and a route, that ATC does not have you on an IFR flight plan, they are thinking they will be giving you VFR Flight Following.  Thus, you always need to make sure you get the "cleared to" part, or you may not be IFR at all. 

[N57039]

This makes no sense at all...that being that a controller missed both giving you a clearance limit and hearing you read one back. If you really want to know, call the tower manager and ask him/her to review the tape. The controller MAY have screwed up (the tape would verify that); you DEFINI TELY screwed up if you left without a clearance limit. The VFR thing is unlikely assumning you were at an IFR altitude enroute and ATC didn' scream at you. And most controllers giving you a clearance are in a windowless room, perhaps hundreds of miles away, and they neither know nor care if its VMC or IMC on your departure.

 

Oh, BTW, file a NASA form before you call the tower.

[flight2000]

Little late for the NASA form since the original thread is over 5 months old and the tapes are long gone....

One pet peeve of mine is hearing the number of "with you" check ins from pilot's (even airline pilots are not immune to saying it...).  It inevitably follows with the controller coming back with "say altitude" for confirmation in a rather stearn voice.  That's the old way that was taught and has long since been frowned upon (see AIM).  Just give what's needed (N # and current altitude i.e. level, descending/climbing for XXX).  This is especially true when arriving into a TRACON with an ATIS.  "With you" check ins get inquisitive questions when the ATIS is anything but Uniform...

Just my take for the couple of cents it's worth...

Brian

[Cruiser]

you flew into the DC SFRA. It is hard to believe there was no clearance. I suspect there would have been a lot of controllers asking you where you were going if you didn't already have a clearance.

Are you sure the controller didn't clear you to FME and then start giving you directions? In my recollection the clearance always comes first then the route.

Did you hear "readback correct"?

[PTK]

Not to repeat things but you may have missed something in IFR class!!  YOU THE PIC are responsible for the flight. NOT ATC. You should have never departed without a clear understanding of your clearance.  Personally I never accept a cleared to point that is pther than an airport to land.  In other words no intersection somewhere but ALWAYS an airport.

[N6784N]

Quote: Cruiser

you flew into the DC SFRA. It is hard to believe there was no clearance. I suspect there would have been a lot of controllers asking you where you were going if you didn't already have a clearance.

Are you sure the controller didn't clear you to FME and then start giving you directions? In my recollection the clearance always comes first then the route.

Did you hear "readback correct"?