Long Range Tanks

[JohnL]

I'd like to hear experiences around installing long range tanks in a M20J or M20K.

I know that Monroy has an kit option for two 15 gal tanks (with speed brakes).

I have a bunch of questions:

Are there other options available?

Monroy estimates 60 hours installation time but your local shop installs them.

How many hours did your install actually take? What shop did you use?

What was the total cost? Did they leak over time? Has it been a positive experience?

[KSMooniac]

Welcome to the site!

 

Monroy is the only option.  I'd suggest calling an installation center for first-hand info from the guys that know it best.  Talking to Paul at Weep No More or Don Maxwell (Maxwell's MSC) would be my first steps.

 

As far as the installation goes, it simply mimics the factory wet wing fuel tanks, just further outboard in the wings.  That involves sheet metal work to add new access panels, sealing the bays, adding extra fuel caps, etc.  Simple work, but tedious.  

[Bennett]

I had the Monroy STCs tanks installed on my prior Mooney. Even with the old vacuum speed brakes the first filling was a bit over 117 gallons. I owned the airplane for 16 years. Never had a fuel leak in any tank. Work was done by the Mod Works - long gone. With tanks filled it was pretty much me and my survival gear in the baggage compartment. LASAR made a articulating back seat that folded down flat, and I would remove the rear seats themselves. Great one place aircraft for long range traveling. Fueling took a sequence to make sure that all tanks were full. Fill the mains, then the outer tanks. Let sit for 5 minutes, and refill the outers to the very top.

[JohnL]

Wow, 117 gallons! Thanks for the feedback and I am happy you had such a good experience.

 

I have a bladder of steel so I love non-stop flights. It's frustrating to fall short.

I've come back from the LA area back to Austin non-stop in my previous Bonanza (tip tanks). Non-stop really makes for easy miles.

 

It's a different story when my wife is with me though (3hr max legs).

[Dale]

I have the Monroy long range tanks in my m20k. I really like them especially on trips over 600 miles. I don't fill the long range tanks full, as that cuts out all of my payload, however, after topping off the mains, I do put in 5 to 7 gallons in each long range tank. That little extra fuel gives me about 1 extra hour of flight time and is very reassuring on those long trips yet preserves some of my payload for a passenger or extra luggage.

[Z W]

I have them, 105 gallons, with speed brakes. I did not do the install, so I cannot comment on that. The ability to choose to put that much fuel on board is nice. I once flew from mid-Missouri to Key West without buying any fuel. I did stop on the way. On mine the tanks are set up so the outboard tanks are connected to the inboard tanks. They will drain into each other. The one thing I do not like is it becomes very difficult to tell how much fuel is on board. If you fill just the main tanks that is 75 gallons. 5 minutes later, about 10-15 gallons of that has flowed out into the outboard tanks. Makes it difficult or impossible to visually verify the line guy got your order right. Over time I have come to recognize what that looks like but it is not as easy as verifying "tanks full". They have been great on a few occasions. It is pretty rare though that I need more than the 75 gallon mains on any flight. It causes useful load problems pretty quick unless you are solo.

[Seth]

Welcome to Mooney Space.

 

I did not install the tanks as they were already on my airplane at purchase in 2011.  I have the Missile conversion on the M20J which drinks a bit more fuel per hour depending on power settings.  I have the long range tanks and I have not had any issues with them.  Frankly, I love the flexibility - fly for a long period of time, tank around cheap fuel you find in nowheresville, and have extra durationa and emergency amounts when necessary should you hit headwinds or hold for weather to clear.  You have pure flexibility on fuel vs payload, and the useful load on the Missile is pretty high.

 

If you have speed brakes or install them, it eats up space that woudl otherwise be availalbe with the long range tanks - note that when installing.  I do not have speed brakes and got an extra 10 gallons or so of fuel vs other extended tanks out there (maybe only 7 or 8 gallons more).

 

However, the negative is when it comes time to reseal.  Knock on wood, I've been okay so far (watch me find a leak today) but you cannot put bladders in if you have the Monroy tanks - that's wet wing only.  So, when I do need a reseal, I'll fly up to "Weep No More" or whatever the place is called in Minnesota and have them complete the work for me.  It will be a more expensive reseal as there wil be four bays, vs two to take care of.  My former Mooney, a 1967 F model had bladders (also previously installed), and I was very happy with both bladders and so far the wet wing.  This is not meant to spark a discussion on bladders or reseal, but with the extended range tanks, you can ONLY reseal.

 

Also, watch for fuel leaks between the inboard and outboard tanks - sometimes it's so small you don't catch it until annual (mine was corrected - I forget which wing had a small leak around one of the connecting pieces.

 

A great addtion to your plane.  Having long range tanks equals a speed mod.  You make a 5 to 8 hour flight no problem and don't lose the minimum 25 minutes to usual hour on the ground during a refueling stop.  Most compentant shops can install the mod, however, Don Maxwell's shop may be the best rated of all Mooney Service Centers.  Since you're in Texas, just use him.  Get someone on this board to fly you back to your home base - I'm sure they'd love a reason to fly, and then drop you back off when your plane is ready.  Maybe do it with your annual and then kill two birds with one stone since it will be sitting there anyway for a period of time.

 

Take care,

 

-Seth

[Dave Marten]

Agree with all! Although I bought my K with the Monroy tanks already installed I've found them very useful. Eliminates a fuel stop between CA and central TX which also eliminates the climb back up to altitude. You may need a 'piddle-pack' or empty gatorade bottle to handle the bladder issue on long X-C legs. Although as others have mentioned with the fam onboard we'll fly about 3+30 legs, so both GW and family happiness negate the tank benefits with more than 2 people+bags onboard. But if you're going a long way and have some useful load to allocate for the gas the tanks are great!

[RJBrown]

Put them on the Rocket 15+ years ago. Again Mod Works, thank goodness they are gone.  Absolutely a necessity on a Rocket. Always filled the tanks, 101 usable. Wife 2 kids and luggage, climb straight to the flight levels at over 1000 fpm. Never had a leak. An accurate fuel flow meter really helps. Unless the J is a Missile or the K is a Rocket I really don't see the need. 5 - 6 hours with stock tanks is most peoples limit. I rented an F once with LRT that had over 10 hour of fuel when filled. Me, fuel and 200#.

 If you get it done don't let someone "learn" on your bird. Someone that has done it many times will save you a lot of hassles.

Both a stock J or K will get between 900 & 1000 miles on stock tanks. Unless you have a consistent need to go 1500 mile at a time I would question the need. 

[Bennett]

I did not install them on my J. I now run this airplane LOP, while I ran my 261 conversion well ROP with a far greater fuel flow. Hard to compare the utility of the two aircraft, but I was flying the 261 for 7 hour legs where I needed the range. Not true today for me, and at well under 10 GPH, the J with 64 gallons useable gives me plenty of range with decent reserves. And my J has less of a useful load, and if I had the LRT, I would be tempted to keep them filled. As mentioned, an accurate fuel flow meter is highly useful in knowing how much fuel you have with the LRTs. The cross flow makes it difficult to be absolutely certain that you are totally filled. The fuel flow meter will help keep track of what you have burned from the time of last fill, and will be helpful when you only want to partially fill the tanks . I have no idea how I ended up with 117 gallons when most the Monroy installations end up at about 110 gallons with speed brakes. I watched the fuel trick do the initial fillings, so I know that is the figure.

[Piloto]

You do not want to have 4 people onboard on a 6+ hour flight. A lot of things can happens like: fart blaming, relieving (ran out of containers) and others. My wife always travels on the back seat by herself for comfort and privacy.

 

José    

[JohnL]

Thanks for all the information everyone.

 

The candidate airplane for the long range tanks is a Rocket 305. I have a 1280 mile trip up to Picatinny Arsenal and I need this range to beat the airline up there.

 

I called Dugosh in Kerville and they said they can install the tanks in about 60-70 hrs at a shop rate of $85/hr. So, with the tank kit from Monroy at $3k, I guess I would need to budget about $9K. Dugosh said they had not done one of these in a "long time", which was about 8 months. If they consider 8 months a long time, then I think I am OK. Has anyone else had tank work done at Dugosh? Good outcome?

[JohnL]

Weep No More, LLC just came back with $3800 labor to install, so $6800 total for long range tanks.

But they are in MN and I'm in TX.... 

[aaronk25]

Weep No More, LLC just came back with $3800 labor to install, so $6800 total for long range tanks.

But they are in MN and I'm in TX....

Paul Beck who owns Weep no more and does the tank work himself does top rate work. Up here in MN its nice this time of year.

[jlunseth]

Weep No More, LLC just came back with $3800 labor to install, so $6800 total for long range tanks.

But they are in MN and I'm in TX.... 

And you have a Mooney.

 

That is an easy trip, just do it.  I went to Memphis last weekend and got lucky.  I got a 20+ knot tailwind going down and a 30+ knot tailwind coming back home, at FL210.  That can happen on that particular route because it is nearly straight north/south.

[RJBrown]

A 1300 kt mile trip in a Rocket is a bit far even for LRT. I flight planned 101 usable 20 gph and 200kts at 12000 for a still air no reserve range of 1000. 5 hours.

  According to the Specs Rocket published to push a Rocket out to 1300 miles would take 17 min at 27 gph to go 30 miles and climb to 24,000' using 8 gal. Cruise 208kts 55% 15 gph for 1270 kts would take 6:15 and use 93 gal. If you could get IFR direct the whole way your reserve would be your tailwind component. East bound 1000 is usually safe, North/ South 900 and West 800. To even consider more than 1000 would require careful planning and execution.

 Long range tanks on a Rocket give 101 to 105 usable. There is a reason std tanks on the factory birds became 100 and LRT became 130. 100 usable allows the range and flexibility lost when the big engine was added. 100 usable should be considered "standard" on a Rocket. I flew mine for a while with only the stock 72. 72 usable is inadequate for a Rocket. Any Rocket without LRT should be docked the cost they really are "required". While I would never add speed brakes to my current J, nice by not necessary, They to are a "required" option for a Rocket. 

 Sounds like Weep no more has the best deal AND the most experience. Worth the airline ticket IMHO.

[Piloto]

The typical HP/gals ratio is 3 for most piston planes to cover 1000nm at 60% power.

Example:

 

180HP/3 = 60 gallons

200HP/3 = 66 gallons

225HP/3 = 75 gallons

270HP/3 = 90 gallons

300HP/3 = 100 gallons

350HP/3 = 116 gallons

600HP/3 = 200 gallons (twins)

 

The above gives you an idea how much fuel you would need if you increase the power on your plane.

 

José 

[Z W]

My 262 gets 165 kts at 11.5 GPH all day long, or better at higher altitudes.  With 105 gallon capacity, that is 9.2 hours of endurance, which produces about 1518 NM, no wind, no reserve.

 

With a 1 hour reserve (which is my personal minimum) it's a range of 1353 NM, plus or minus the wind.

 

I seriously hope I never spend 8.2 hours in the plane non-stop.  I've done some 5.5 hour flights and found them miserable, even with a relief bottle.  But, if I want to, I can do it

 

I will say, when you're taking off against a headwind, with questionable weather (low IFR) beneath you, and you're solo, it's a comforting feeling to have 9.2 hours of fuel on board.  If you don't like the weather below you, or have to deviate, or hit an extra 30 kts of unforecasted headwinds, you can just suck it up and keep flying until things look better.  That's the best use I've found for the long range tanks.

[Frank B.]

On 6/13/2013 at 10:10 PM, JohnL said:

Weep No More, LLC just came back with $3800 labor to install, so $6800 total for long range tanks.

But they are in MN and I'm in TX.... 

According to their website Monroy no longer sells the long range tanks unless their sister company, “Blue Skies Aviation” does the installation.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Wonderful.... so basically it is off the market for any plane based outside the US.

How can Mooney ask that of an existing STC? Maybe for new planes or those in warranty, but not for planes which are 50+ years sold?

Does Blue Sky have an installation facility in Europe?

[LANCECASPER]

19 minutes ago, Frank B. said:

According to their website Monroy no longer sells the long range tanks unless their sister company, “Blue Skies Aviation” does the installation.

That’s emapa.aero in San Marcos TX saying that if you buy the kit from them, then Blue Skies Aviation in San Marcos has to do the install.

You can but the kit directly from Monroy Aerospace. Contact info is at Monroyaero.com. Many shops all over the world can do this install.

[carusoam]

Also check the dates used in this thread...

Some things may have changed since....

Hard to say who is the mfg being referred to in the necro post...

Speak directly with José Monroy for best results related to Monroy aviation...

Best regards,

-a-