VFR into IMC

[Marauder]

how do birds deal  with inadvertent imc; someone must have studied this!

 

Funny you mention this, I remember flying IFR once and came up through a layer to find a flock of Canadian geese on a due south heading (look like the goose right behind the leader of the echelon was yelling at him -- probably for going through that sucker hole).

[robert7467]

Maybe I am not explaining this right. The hole, the tops were at around 2500ft. When I punched through it I was at about 1800' MSL scud running, then visibility was diminishing. I told my wife to help me watch out for towers. Then we started seeing mountains (really hills). I could have been 500-1000 AGL. The ceiling started closing in fast I was getting "swirl’s", and visibility went to almost zero (don’t know how many miles if any, because I have never been in that situation). That’s when I had to make a fast decision to put it down, and I looked over my shoulder and saw a faded blue among the white clouds, and that what I shot for. Full power, airspeed 120, coordinated left turn, scanning instruments until we broke the clouds.

 

On the way down through the hole, I pulled carb heat and pulled the power down to 15 inches to avoid shock cooling, had to maintain pitch in the upper limits of the yellow arch (almost 200 MPH), I had to maintain that pitch to avoid flying directly into the clouds and stay close to VFR minimums. Thank God, I knew the Mooney was a tough bird, so I wasn’t distracted worrying about an inflight breakup, but knew I couldn’t do much more banking down. It would have been much nicer if I could pull the power all the way back. If I had to do it again, I would have slowed down, pulled gear down, that way I could pitch just as hard and not exceed 120, and I would be almost setup for forced landing and everything wouldn’t have happened so fast. But then again, when I hit almost zero visibility, that airspeed made me confident to bank harder than standard rate to get out of it ( and when I say airspeed at that point it was 140)

[Marauder]

Hi Robert. Just read your last post. If I understand you correctly, in order to maintain VFR you shot through a small hole at almost 200 mph, did I read that right? IF so -- now you are scaring me! I get the concern over going IMC and attempting to maintain VFR, but attempting to maintain VFR at high speeds and blindly (you didn't know if there were obstacles below the clouds -- as you stated you told your wife earlier to look out for towers). You could have easily flown into a hill, a tower or the ground itself. Now I understand why you are so shaken up by this. That manuever, my friend, truly could have ended your flying career -- not to mention your family.

 

It is much better to fly the plane in a controlled manner and not doing anything abrupt.

[robert7467]

I agree, thats where I messed up. I went into a situation, on a whim. Flying in good VFR, getting an illusion is the begining. I should have called flight watch first before I made any changes. If I would have called flight watch, they would have told me what I already knew, and what I already planned for, which was the cloud base was going to break up soon. I knew it, but the illusion of the clouds coming together is what made me make a drastic, and desperate change. When I did my planning, it was for VFR with good visibility, with a little bit of a ceiling for a short period of time in the middle of the route. Thats what it actually was, except for the illusion. But then I saw an airport, and a nice hole and thats where it all when downhill. Just to sum it it up:

 

It started out smart, and well planned.

Then it turned stupid.

Then my training kicked in and recoverd.

[robert7467]

Just trying to reconstruct I was over Hawn State Park going to Perryville, MO (K02). Hawn is a little over 800 MSL.

[scottfromiowa]

Sooooo your training was in clouds with a non-instrument rated pilot?

 

N.O.P.E!

[thinwing]

One other thing..you mentioned that the mentor who taught you how to fly into clouds and "dont look outside ,look at your instruments"was a non instrument rated 3000 hr pilot.Do you see a problem with this???Was this mentor one of the pilots at the local drop zone that you skydived at?If so...you really got my attention kpc

[robert7467]

Thats easy to say now, but when you are a new pilot in training, trusting a pilot who has been flying since before I was born made more sense at the time. Just like when you are a student, you think your instructor is the best pilot in the world. Now that I am a pilot, my views are completely different, but I am greatfull that I did have some real cloud training, and it was a lifesaver for me. Now, being more humbled I would have done a lot more things differently. Its much easier to establish what I should have done on the ground.

[robert7467]

He wasn’t a 3,000 hr pilot, but a pilot that has been flying for over 30 years leisurely. And no it wasn’t the guy at the drop zone. Speaking of that guy in his super king air, he lands before the skydivers does.

[thinwing]

No other to say this but to blurt it out(i did count to ten and remembered the golden rule)I do not think you have a lick of common sense Robert and given the choice I would rather be in an airplane with the parrots piloting

[FlyDave]

I just keep hitting the reload button on this thread. This is becoming entertaining, to say the least!

Robert - in my opinion you need to do 2 things:

1. FOLLOW THE RULES!!! (they're there for many reasons)
2. Go fly for 20-30 hours with a GOOD, QUALIFIED, EXPERIENCED INSTRUCTOR. Tell this person what you've been through and have them read this thread. Then spend a few hours on the ground discussing it and go fly with this person - a lot!.

Just my opinion after you've posted more about your experience and training.

[robert7467]

Well, I had to throw a new twist since this thread was moving towards LOP ROP, and parrots. Like I said, I am humbled, and I realize I need a lot more training, and expierience. This whole thread is about me being extremely humbled, and realizing that I need training. I have already talked to 3 flight instructors, and my DPE and we are coming up with a game plan to work this out. I made the mistake, or series of mistakes that put my family in danger, and I take full accountability for it, and I realize I have a long way to go. I have decent stick and rudder skills, but poor decision making skills. A good pilot wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with. I have came to the conclusion that every pilot has made some poor choices in their flying career. It's life.

[thinwing]

Maybe I should apologize over that parrot crack but some day I might just be letting down on the localyser into Memphis when his buddy is up flying thru little clouds!!

[201er]

Like I said, I am humbled, and I realize I need a lot more training, and expierience. This whole thread is about me being extremely humbled, and realizing that I need training.

You don't need more training, you need to get your head out of your ass! You're playing with fire. The last few stories I read about someone going VFR into IMC, the outcome listed fatalities! You don't need more training. If you got a private pilot certificate just recently, you have received all the training you need to safely fly VFR. Attitude is a whole other story. No amount of instruction and training will solve that. You don't need someone to teach you how to fly in the clouds. You need to stop being an idiot and not putting yourself there in the first place. And you shouldn't be taking anyone up flying with you until you can get 50-100 hours of trouble free flight and be confident with yourself to be able to take them with 100% safety. To drag others through your situation is completely unacceptable.

 

As a next to zero time pilot, you have to set some BIG safety margins for yourself. Minimums aren't meant for you. They are meant for guys with lots of experience who are certain they can operate at those minimums. You have to set your own minimums and better on the conservative side until you learn what your lower limits can safely be.

 

Most sane VFR pilots with a healthy fear of IMC turn around when they begin to encounter it. You decided to break the rules, press on, and put everyone at risk of DEATH. Either quit flying while you're still ahead or fix your attitude and give it the seriousness that it so strongly requires.

 

*All that said with your safety and the preservation of GA in mind.

[Z W]

178 seconds to live makes no sense to me.  What part of "straight and level" is so hard to accomplish with an attitude indicator staring at you from the center of your panel?  If you can find that video on Youtube, you can understand that your sense of balance is completely destroyed by the motions and G-forces in an aircraft, and so you must trust your instruments.

VFR into IMC is a very serious situation and should be avoided, but it should not cause panic.

[Z W]

201er - way too harsh, in my opinion.  His attitude appears to be that he's scared himself so badly he may not fly again.  No need to kick the man while he's down after he came here to confess.  He's seeking additional training and trying to learn from his mistakes.

[robert7467]

Not saying its right, but the clouds were miles and miles apart, and you can see on both ends, plus we had flight following. He is now working on his instrument rating as well. He has some time working on his rating, many centuries ago. He generally follows the rules, does good preflights, and is real anal about weather. He just knew where I was lacking in training, and wanted to drill down on attitude recovery. Once again, I am not saying what we did was right, but I am able to type on this post as a result of it. Bottom line, I need training, and lots if it from a "qualified" instructor, and I need to take a serious, professional approach to it, and every time I get in that airplane I need to keep in the back of mind that something can go wrong, and be better prepared for it. And as far as rules are concerned, I planed my flight per the rules, and rules didn't keep me from danger, so not only do I have to follow the rules, I still have to be more vigilant. Here is a good rule, I am now licensed to fly at night, but does that mean I should without an instructor since I only meet minimums? Well even though I can legally do it, I still need more time with an instructor. Or, I need to stay 20 miles from a thunderstorm, does that mean I am going to fly with a thunderstorm 40 miles away? If course not.

[thinwing]

It was made years ago...vfr pilots werent getting any unusual attitude practice and every year 50 vfr pilots came spireling out of cloud bases to low too pull out or pulling the wings off if the cloud bases were high enough

[kmyfm20s]

We have been through the instructor issue with the thread about landing his Mooney that was lost in the server crash. Sounds like good advice! It also ended up with a dog pile on the OP.

Robert, I'm impressed with the mileage you get with your post! They become amazingly long, entertaining and most importantly educational!

[fantom]

Harsh, yes, but could be accurate and if so, there's no 'nice' way to sugar coat it.

 

 

 

 

Some are destined for the front seat, others not, even though they want it. Not losing one's cool under pressure is a very hard trait to overcome, and as we've read here, can be deadly in the flying business.

[thinwing]

Ok so he is now getting his rating cause after 30 years of leisurely flying in the Memphis area he is smart enough to know that one of these days he is going to fly thru a cloud made of cumulogranite.I do not think you should be writing about this stuff anymore...you are not only incriminating your self but your non ifr rated ifr instructor..I am over and out

[fantom]

...you are not only incriminating your self but your non ifr rated ifr instructor..I am over and out

 

Sorry Robert, but your entire story is so bizarre that I too am RTB.

[xftrplt]

Lemme see: though unsure of the terrain and obstacles, you dove with you family into a hole doing 200 mph because you didn't want to shock-cool your motor. Interesting priorities.

[robert7467]

Thanks, I agree, this is wearing me out as well. On a more positive note I have ordered IFR training materials, and I start training next week. The hardest part of my ppl, is that most instructors around here are not qualified for mooney insurance, which is why I had to stay with my previous instructor. With IFR, since I am in pilot in command, I can be a little more selective, and if I feel like I am not receiving proper instruction, I can replace him. The way that I got this set up now, is there is a real ball buster instructor, and there is an old instructor that retired from FedEx a long time ago, who also trained his 2 sons who now work for FedEx as captains. I am going to utilize both. I will admit, after Sunday, I am a shitty pilot. Piloting goes far beyond flying an airplane, and like I said in the first post I have failed as a pilot. Like the rest of my training, I will keep you guys posted. Except for the basics, I am pretty much self taught "and it shows", but I did just recently pass a 7 1/2 hr checkride, and didn't miss anything. I have ridden dirt bikes for years and never had a broken bone. I have driven cars since I was 16 and never had an accident, and in the last 10 years never had a ticket. I own my own home, and kids attending private school. I excel at work and show up 2 hrs early every day. I am not bragging, but I want to drive home, that I am not just some dumbass that jumps in a plane that thinks he is macho, and smarter than everyone. Like I tell my employees, I am the farthest thing from perfect, and if I make a mistake, I will fix it. I don't always make the best parenting choices, but I give my kids my best. I obviously didn't make a good piloting decision last weekend, but I will either fix it, or stop flying all together ( at this point I am going to work on fixing it, as I worked too hard for my ticket).

[robert7467]

Well if I lost my motor, then I wouldn't be able to get out if it. It's easy to analyze on the ground.