M20F Turbo Normalized

[TurboExec]

This is in response to George asking about the "Turbo" Exec...

The simple way to put it....take a stock F model and throw a turbo under the hood and a manual wastegate.  Its often been said "its like having a second throttle" when you run out of one (Naturally aspirated) you start turning in the other (wastegate).

I absolutely love the setup, it has been on my particular airplane since 1968.  It takes away in total about 30lbs. of useful load.  But the options it gives you far out weight the negatives.  Nothing is changed on the engine, except some intake ducting and modifying the airbox...you lose the ram air but that is what the turbo is for.  You keep the high compression pistons so you get a little better fuel economy when compared to the 235...I think the Lycoming is a better engine than the Continental anyways.

Living in FL I don't use it all that often unless I am traveling some distance, or there is a really great tail wind up there.  The STC certifies the airplane to 25k', I've had it up to 17.5k', and it will hit about 175 KTAS.  At 6k' I'm doing 145KTAS, so it adds a good 30kts to the plane.  When not in use the turbo sits idle, no exhaust gas enters the turbo when not in use....so it should be pretty good on maintenance because its not spinning all the time.  With it I'm able to maintain a 800-1000fpm climb rate into the high teens.  And the Mooney wing really was designed to be flown high in the thinner air...the plane really seems to like it up there.

If the plane didn't have it would I pay for the STC and equipment....NO...I think it is M20Turbos that sells a similar STC and it runs over $20K (not sure if that includes install).  After having the turbo I don't think I would like going without it...and about the only thing I'd like to step up to would be a TN 201.  Like I said I don't want the K model due to the engine, and I don't need a long body model just yet, I like burning only 10g/hour.

I don't want to start a whole LOP debate, but if I go LOP 24" 2450RPM I'll burn about 8.5gph doing ~140kts or 160mph, which works out to about 19mpg....that's better than my truck!!!

If you want to know anything more just ask....And any other Turbo owners feel free to add your thoughts, suggestions, and experiences....

[Greg_D]

Adam, there are a few other modifications to the engine and airframe with the Rayjay TN setup on an M20F.  The engine driven fuel pump is a little different and the fuel injectors have shrouds over them.  There are also a few extra hoses run for turbo reference air, etc.  The muffler is removed from the plane and the two side panels on the cowling need to have louvers inserted to help with temperatures.  Also, I believe the turbo does spin a little, although at low rpms, even when not in use since the wastegate valve doesn't close all the way (it didn't on mine, anyway).

Yeah, they are nice setups.  Especially for the small additional cost they add to exixting airframes.  I'm not sure if I could justify the cost of one of the newer M20 kits on an older airframe.  It might make sense on something like a newer MSE.

BTW, the guy that owns the Rayjay STC for the Mooney models isn't in business any more.  However, most of the generic parts (seals, etc)are available from an outfit in Florida.

[TurboExec]

Greg you are right I missed a few of those things.

The turbo on mine doesn't spin when not in use....we had the turbo outlet hose off once when ground testing, and for us the waste gate needed to be screwed in some before the turbo moved.  I did have my waste gate overhauled (adjusted) by my mechanic to make sure it was sealing good both on and off....that maybe the difference we are seeing.

I met the guy that owns the STC, all his stuff was destroyed a few years ago by Hurrican Charlie.  In fact I was close to buying a PFM Mooney off of him for $25K.  I offered $20k but he wouldn't take it.  Somebody apparently bought it cleaned it up and was trying to sell it for over $75k not to long ago.

[GeorgePerry]

Very Cool...I wish I could afford it.

http://www.m-20turbos.com/content/products/turbo.php?link=turbo

 

[mooniac58]

Quote: GeorgePerry

Very Cool...I wish I could afford it.

http://www.m-20turbos.com/content/products/turbo.php?link=turbo

 

I looked into that one too, boy they are really proud of it though - what a price tag!

[TurboExec]

Quote: mooniac58

I looked into that one too, boy they are really proud of it though - what a price tag!

[mooniac58]

No not in Hawaii.  Normally aspirated Mooney's are the ultimate aircraft for Hawaii...I even question my climbs to 8500 most flights but still do it for the glide safety for overwater operations (which in my J should be an astounding 18+ nm from that altitude!).  Nothing makes me smile more than telling someone I flew from Kona to Honolulu (a 155nm flight) in 1 hour and using about 12-14 gallons of fuel

However, I am planning to move back to the mainland in a year or two and with all the work I have into 01N I will be taking her with me.  My dream location to move to would be Santa Fe, NM - which has an airport at around 6500 MSL - and common MEA's of 14,000-16,000.  Plus for the long trips, getting up into the FLs you can get in excess of 190 KTAS with the normalizer, from what I hear.

[TurboExec]

I don't think I'd say 190kts with the 4 cylinder models.  180kts, probably but 190kts would really be pushing it.

So you are going to fly 01N to the mainland right?  What will be one hell of a fun ferry flight!

[airfoill]

Quote: TurboExec

Living in FL I don't use it all that often unless I am traveling some distance, or there is a really great tail wind up there.  The STC certifies the airplane to 25k', I've had it up to 17.5k', and it will hit about 175 KTAS.  At 6k' I'm doing 145KTAS, so it adds a good 30kts to the plane.  When not in use the turbo sits idle, no exhaust gas enters the turbo when not in use....so it should be pretty good on maintenance because its not spinning all the time.  With it I'm able to maintain a 800-1000fpm climb rate into the high teens.  And the Mooney wing really was designed to be flown high in the thinner air...the plane really seems to like it up there.

[TurboExec]

Quote: airfoill

 

 

Hi Adam,

I have the same setup you do.  What kind of power settings are you using at 17.5 to get 175KTAS?

[airfoill]

Quote: TurboExec

How do you usually run yours?  What are you seeing for speeds?  And CHT temps?  LOP or ROP?

[Greg_D]

I've never seen hard data to support this, but I've heard the Rayjay system extracts a 2" MP hit on the engine.  IOW, you'd need to run your MP 2" higher with the Rayjay than without to see the same performance.  The performace chart that came with my turbo sure didn't reflect this, but some very knowledgeable Mooney mechanics swear it's true.

[TurboExec]

Quote: Greg_D

I've never seen hard data to support this, but I've heard the Rayjay system extracts a 2" MP hit on the engine.  IOW, you'd need to run your MP 2" higher with the Rayjay than without to see the same performance.  The performace chart that came with my turbo sure didn't reflect this, but some very knowledgeable Mooney mechanics swear it's true.

[airfoill]

Quote: Greg_D

I've never seen hard data to support this, but I've heard the Rayjay system extracts a 2" MP hit on the engine.  IOW, you'd need to run your MP 2" higher with the Rayjay than without to see the same performance.  The performace chart that came with my turbo sure didn't reflect this, but some very knowledgeable Mooney mechanics swear it's true.

[jbreda]

For all of you that have wanted to turbo-normalize your F or E model Mooney, I have a completely rebuilt RayJay kit with all of the documentation including the two required STC's, all the reference diagrams, install manual, FAA approved POH letter and drawings.  I will not be using it and it is available for sale.  The turbo and scavenger pump have both been rebuilt with proper return to service documentation and the exhaust pipes and wastegate have all been completely rebuilt saving only the smallest of parts (so they are really new parts).  The wastegate  was built heavier than the original part (the originals were made from exhaust pipe thickness materials and would warp and change shape from the heat, thus the complaints of the wastegate problems by owners posting to this thread).  This is the closest you will get to a new RayJay turbo system for an E or F.  As you all know this stuff is pretty rare these days.  See pictures below which show the major parts.

I also have a second set of newly rebuilt exhaust pipes and wastegate for anyone who has a RayJay system installed but wants a set of spare parts for the shelf.  You can e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com for more information. 

Thanks,  John Breda

[piperpainter]

What does something like that run??

[aschardt]

I've got a '67 M20F with the RayJay normalizer and just love it.  It's there when you want it, it's not there when you don't need it.  I probably only use it 10% of the time, but it sure is nice to be climbing and never see the MP go down.  When I run it i'm usually running 2500 and 26 - 26.5" CHT's around 370-380, EGT usually kept under 1400.   It does increase fuel consumption though, 12-13 GPH when runnning 26.5".   Also something to note is that I posted recently regarding a rough running engine.  It happened twice and we now belive it was bits of carbon coming through the upper deck air clogging the GAMI's.  Apparantly this air comes from the turbo ducting, which does make some sense that would create carbon.  An inline filter should take care of it.   Also I see around 180 - 190 mph with the turbo at 12,000. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: aschardt

I've got a '67 M20F with the RayJay normalizer and just love it.  It's there when you want it, it's not there when you don't need it.  I probably only use it 10% of the time, but it sure is nice to be climbing and never see the MP go down.  When I run it i'm usually running 2500 and 26 - 26.5" CHT's around 370-380, EGT usually kept under 1400.   It does increase fuel consumption though, 12-13 GPH when runnning 26.5".

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I ran one very well LOP on a delivery and had a bit lower fuel consumption than you mention on a good TAS.  You should try it.