Marauder Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Hi All, I posted this on the Pilots of Americas website and got no responses on it! Maybe you guys/gals can tell me what is going on. I had a Garmin GTN650 installed in December. I purchased the Jepp Navigation annual subscription before realizing that Garmin had provided me a free database update. In January, I updated the Nav data using the Jepp jsum process. I saw that the terrain, obstacle and safe taxi databases were outdated. I went to the Garmin site and executed my free update coupon. I downloaded the obstacle, base map, terrain and safe taxi updates but was not able to get the current Nav (site stated I needed to buy it). I then got the current cycle of the Nav data from jsum. When I loaded the database SD in the Garmin, the Nav data (from Jepp) updated but I got errors on the rest. I contacted Garmin and they said to reload the SD and try again. Before I haul my butt out there again, has anyone seen this issue and what have you found to correct it. Here are some pics: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dawson Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Did you check to make sure that the down load sd card has the same reference number that the GTN has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Hi Steve, I have two SD cards provided by the installer. They both have the same information on them except for the date. Here is what the older one looks like. Do you think the date has any impact? The part number is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I am having the same problem with my GTN750. So any advice...please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Hi All, I posted this on the Pilots of Americas website and got no responses on it! Maybe you guys/gals can tell me what is going on. I had a Garmin GTN650 installed in December. I purchased the Jepp Navigation annual subscription before realizing that Garmin had provided me a free database update. In January, I updated the Nav data using the Jepp jsum process. I saw that the terrain, obstacle and safe taxi databases were outdated. I went to the Garmin site and executed my free update coupon. I downloaded the obstacle, base map, terrain and safe taxi updates but was not able to get the current Nav (site stated I needed to buy it). I then got the current cycle of the Nav data from jsum. When I loaded the database SD in the Garmin, the Nav data (from Jepp) updated but I got errors on the rest. I contacted Garmin and they said to reload the SD and try again. Before I haul my butt out there again, has anyone seen this issue and what have you found to correct it. Here are some pics: ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360279077.052394.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360279091.443021.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360279109.653787.jpg I am going to post the question on the Beechtalk side, there are some Garmin guys who answer sometimes. May be we can get some answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'm looking forward to hearing the answers to the problem.  At this point I'm confused about the various databases from Garmin and Jeppesen. I have a GTN 750, a GTN 650, and a Aera 796, all using SD cards for updates.  I called Jeppesen when I changed from a GNS 430 W to the GTB 650 (several days ago), and the person I spoke to was helpful (I think).  I am on a 28 day nav data cycle for the 650 and 750, and Jeppesen did in fact change my Jeppesen profile to show both a 700 and a 600 series for nav data (and a 796).  I downloaded the newest databases for all three units two days ago, but I'm really not sure that I have what I think I subscribe to (nor what exactly my options are).  This will only make sense to someone who is trying to deal with both Garmin and Jeppesen.  I spent over $750 last July at Oshkosh buying multiple subscriptions at the "special airshow price". I think I have what I need, but I have never seen a price sheet for both Garmin and Jeppesen for all the various available databases, and "packages". And, I too have a free upgrade from Garmin, but will this override the Jeppesen database? I haven't tried using it, because frankly, I don't know what it is supposed to do. I really like the Garmin units, and I don't think I am missing any functionality, but this interrelationship between Garmin and Jeppesen seems a bit quirky to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishboneash Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I had a problem with the 2nd SD card that came with the GTN 650. I had to get it replaced through the dealer. Apparently the stupid thing costs $460 if Garmin sends out a new one and the old one is not returned to them. I also enabled my first free update and have to sign up for a new subscription. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Don't know if this will help:  I have a GTN 750 and a 696. The 750 was new in Dec and I had one free download from Garmin. I downloaded to both the provided SD cards... just in case... no problems. I have since subscribed to the Garmin data including their charts after pricing the Jeppcharts option which would require paying Gamin a couple of thousand to enable for Jepp.  When I had the plane back in the avionics shop to get a GDL 88 installed they updated the 750 operating system. I just updated both SD cards again without problem.  I've been updating the 696 using a 2GB SD card for a year w/o any problems.  One difference, the 696 card does not have to be in the radio once the data has been uploaded. The 750 card has to be in the radio for part of the data to be accessible. (But after I built check lists into the 696 I find those remain on the SD card so the card stays in the 696.)  So... I no longer buy data direct from Jepp as i did with my old GPS. The 750 costs about $1000 per year with charts (approach plates), the 696 about $500, also with charts, both through fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'm looking forward to hearing the answers to the problem.  At this point I'm confused about the various databases from Garmin and Jeppesen. I have a GTN 750, a GTN 650, and a Aera 796, all using SD cards for updates.  I called Jeppesen when I changed from a GNS 430 W to the GTB 650 (several days ago), and the person I spoke to was helpful (I think).  I am on a 28 day nav data cycle for the 650 and 750, and Jeppesen did in fact change my Jeppesen profile to show both a 700 and a 600 series for nav data (and a 796).  I downloaded the newest databases for all three units two days ago, but I'm really not sure that I have what I think I subscribe to (nor what exactly my options are).  This will only make sense to someone who is trying to deal with both Garmin and Jeppesen.  I spent over $750 last July at Oshkosh buying multiple subscriptions at the "special airshow price". I think I have what I need, but I have never seen a price sheet for both Garmin and Jeppesen for all the various available databases, and "packages". And, I too have a free upgrade from Garmin, but will this override the Jeppesen database? I haven't tried using it, because frankly, I don't know what it is supposed to do. I really like the Garmin units, and I don't think I am missing any functionality, but this interrelationship between Garmin and Jeppesen seems a bit quirky to me. Figuring out these database subscriptions was harder than getting the launch codes for an ICBM. I think I understand them and can help explain the panel mount stuff. On the Garmin 650 you have a basemap, obstacle, terrain, safe taxi and nav. Where the confusion comes in is what each does and what do you need. The basemap is exactly that. Think of it as a map of the United States but lacking any details. The obstacle database is for the man made obstacles that we are so good at making. These windmills going up everywhere is a good example. The terrain database is the topography portion. This rarely changes. These are earth based features that can only change from something major happening. like Mount Saint Helen blowing it's top off. The safe taxi is the map of an airport with you georeferenced on it. And the Nav database. This is the one that contains all of the airways, VORs , approaches, etc. Of all these, only the Nav is required to be updated and current for IFR.  On the 750, you have the same plus a FliteChart subscription to get the approach plates. Both Garmin and Jepp sell these subscriptions. Now this is where it gets crazy.  Garmin sells these databases through a single update, in subscriptions (except for the terrain) and in PilotPaks. The lite version of the PilotPaks doesn't contain the Jepp Nav data (only the rest of the databases). So, if you want to use Jepp and jsum to update your Nav database, you can go to Jepp and buy their subscription. And then buy the other databases from Garmin. Jepp charges $450 for a 650 Nav only database. Garmin $499. But you can buy the full Garmin PilotPak that includes the Jepp nav data for $862 and from what I read on their website, you can update ALL radios in one airplane for that price. See below:  PilotPaks provide all the databases below to be used with any combination of qualified devices installed in one aircraft, all for a single annual price. Depending on the amount of qualifying avionics and the PilotPak selected, pilots can save anywhere from 20% to over 80% annually when compared to purchasing annual subscriptions to each database. This PilotPak provides all of the following databases and their periodic updates, for all qualifying avionics in a single aircraft for an entire year. Jeppesen NavData Obstacle Terrain SafeTaxi Airport Directory  When you go to the Jepp site and put in two GTN650s, the price totals $607.50 -- but you don't get the other databases! This is where they got me! I thought I was getting all of the database updates for $450 for my 1 GTN instead of the $862 on the Garmin site. Little did I know that the rest of the databases are not maintained with the same subscriptions for the Nav one. When I called Jepp, they sent me a link to the site that contained these subscriptions. Guess what... It came in at more than $862.... really pissed me off.  For the Aspen owners, there's more! Only the MFD gets updated. The MFD contains Nav, obstacle, terrain and flight chart data. The Nav, obstacle and terrain are only available from Jepp. Nice thing is that they allow you to use any microSD card to download the data. Bad thing, they won't allow you to order it electronically, you need to call to get the price. The flight chart data comes from Seattle Avionics. Here is the kicker. Seattle Avionics only supports the microSD card that comes with the MFD. And since the card needs to be in the unit while operating, I am forced to use the Aspen microSD. Nice...  In my situation, I have decided to keep the obstacle, terrain and nav current on my Aspen MFD and only the Nav on the Garmin.  That is what led me here today. I found the free update coupon from Garmin in my paperwork. Downloaded the basemap, terrain, obstacle and safetaxi databases to do at least 1 update -- and it didn't work. What a joy....  Here are the links for Garmin: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/aircraft/details.jsp?doAirMan=load&aircraftID=133996#dvc230833avdbtype_id_2 Non PilotPak price list: http://download.garmin.com/avdb/Garmin_Aviation_Database_Price_List.pdf Jepp Link for Garmin:http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/main/store/legal/charts/ads-overview.jsp  And the icing on the cake... this is the Jepp full data package for my 1 GTN 650 (Garmin wanted $862 for it):   PilotPak Standard + JeppView MFD: $1,442.00 Garmin GTN 600/700 NavData Full USA1 Garmin GTN 600/700 JeppView Full USA (All 48 Contiguous States)1 Garmin GTN 600/700 SafeTaxi United States1 Garmin GTN 600/700 Obstacles United States & Europe1 Garmin GTN 600/700 Terrain Worldwide1 Garmin GTN 600/700 Airport Directory United States1 Shipping & Handling:$11.50** Enroute charts are included.  Total:$1,453.50 (But the good news is that the price is the same for 2 GTN 650s)  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I am going to post the question on the Beechtalk side, there are some Garmin guys who answer sometimes. May be we can get some answers. Thanks Oscar. I did what Garmin suggested and downloaded the data again. If I get time tomorrow, I will run out to the airport and see if it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 To Bob & Bennett -- how many SD cards did you get with each GPS unit? My installer gave me two. If they both work, it will be nice since I can download to the extra one and swap it out. On the Aspen, I need to remember to bring the microSD card home to update it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I had a problem with the 2nd SD card that came with the GTN 650. I had to get it replaced through the dealer. Apparently the stupid thing costs $460 if Garmin sends out a new one and the old one is not returned to them. I also enabled my first free update and have to sign up for a new subscription.  I didn't see you post. So you did get two cards with your GTN 650? I got two as well but one is dated 2010 and the other 2011. I'm woindering if my installer gave me a bad one... Why else would I have gotten one dated from 2010? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 All that is <$100 bucks on WingX for the year... Legal to use in IFR ( for data purposes, not running the AP itself) includes every I-whatever I own in the plane. (pad,pod, phone,etc.) Updates by wifi, at home, at the airport, at Dunkin's, or McD's... $1500 bucks every year and requires a CS degree and enough confusion from two data suppliers. I understand why people are not happy with the G way... BK isn't any better. Same data delivered by the government. Wouldn't it be nice if WingX could deliver your data to the G Suite? And include your Aspen suite as well? Include your position on your IFR procedures for a few bucks more? I'm happy that Garmin makes this stuff, where others couldn't. But the data price is hard to swallow. It seems like WingX was getting close to being able to upload to the GTNs, but something needed to scramble the data. Or is it just me? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 There are indications Garmin is not playing well in the sandbox, especially with Aspen. There was an issue with Aspen's Connected Pilot product and Garmin cross-over feature due to what Aspen claims were changes in Garmin's code. I received a letter from Aspen to this point.  As a consumer, I want an open hierarchy. Getting locked into someone's hardware, especially if there is subscription costs on top of it, just makes everyone swallow hard.  The unfortunate thing is that the FAA may change their fee structure for the data that companies like Wingx, Seattle Avionics, ForeFlight and others use. The FAA saw a substantial revenue drop off when we began switching from paper products to electronic versions. The data for that electronic version comes from the FAA. They were charging very little for it because at the time, no one had a product to use it.  Things have changed. It will be another interesting area to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I don't know about you guys but for my kind of flying I only update the database once a year. I routinely fly to 5 airports only to visit relatives and nothing has changed at these airports except fuel prices. Like in the old days of Delco INS it is perfectly legal to fly with an expired database as long as the pilot has verified the waypoints either by published data or by actual flight. A new unverified database can have errors. There is also a risk of screwing up your GPS everytime you update. Save the money on updates, and use it for AVGAS to keep you flying. José 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Marauder, Thank you for your very thorough analysis of the Garmin vs Jeppesen database subscriptions. As soon as my Jepp subscriptions expire, I'll buy the set from Garmin. Amazing that no one but you had this sort of information. I talked to Garmin and Jeppesen at the various air shows, and by phone, and still couldn't get a straight answer. I did not get two SD cards with the 650. I will try and use my Garmin free update for the baseline data for the 650 (which is out of date) and then reload the Jepp nav data, and see what happens. As I said, I really like the functionality of the various Garmin units. I just don't like the subscription pricing for either Garmin or Jeppesen, especially when compared with just about any of the iPad / iPhone apps like Foreflight, which I still use for flight planning at home, and for sectionals in the airplane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Uploading the database once per year for the KL90B costs near $100. It is out of date after the first 28 days. Screwing up the GPS is real. The box comes out, the data card gets exchanged, the box slid back in. If anything happens incorrectly, the old database should still be in there. WingX becomes my uptodate database of choice. The VORs haven't moved in years. NDBs are slowly disappearing. Compare my KLN database to WingX, fly VOR to VOR using the KLN as the driver. I would appreciate a compromise, a few hundred bucks to the G guys not the near 2K. I am flying 100 hours per year, most of it in VMC. That much dough tied up in gov data doesn't make sense. Not having the data doesn't make sense because I start trading levels of safety. It would be nice to have a GTN, but the added expense for 100 hrs per year looks more unreal to my CFO. -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I went to the Garmin website for their Pilot Pak pricing. The $862 figure would apply only to the GTN 750 and GTN 650. There would be separate charges for the 796, and even their "Lite" annual figure is $299.00. At this point I don't even know what Jeppesen is really charging me, as they waived the increase from the GNS 430W to the GTN 650. At renewal time I will run through the entire exercise with both Garmin and Jeppesen. I really don't mind the 28 day updates via computer - far better than all the paper filing I did for years and years, especially when I needed several binders to hold them all when flying across the country. I have been enjoying the Safe Taxi presentation, especially at the larger airports with multiple taxiways. As I mentioned in my PIREP, I am really pleased with the TIS-B traffic in the relative aircraft option display. As much as I hate paying these subscription costs, I do think that having up to date data is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 If I used it several times per week, that would be one thing. But once a month, the price doesn't match. The safety is still important though... It's good to have the conversation. Thanks. -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Marauder, Thank you for your very thorough analysis of the Garmin vs Jeppesen database subscriptions. As soon as my Jepp subscriptions expire, I'll buy the set from Garmin. Amazing that no one but you had this sort of information. I talked to Garmin and Jeppesen at the various air shows, and by phone, and still couldn't get a straight answer. I did not get two SD cards with the 650. I will try and use my Garmin free update for the baseline data for the 650 (which is out of date) and then reload the Jepp nav data, and see what happens. As I said, I really like the functionality of the various Garmin units. I just don't like the subscription pricing for either Garmin or Jeppesen, especially when compared with just about any of the iPad / iPhone apps like Foreflight, which I still use for flight planning at home, and for sectionals in the airplane. You're welcome! I'm convinced they either did it this way so no ones knows what it really costs. or that they made it so complicated they don't even know. Jepp snagged me on the subscription. I really thought I was getting all of the database subscription. Take a look at the Jepp link above and read what is included. Sure sounded like it contained all of them. Instead I just got the Nav version. My email went to 3 people at Jepp before the last one came back with the answer and the link to the site that brought the total up over $1,400... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I went to the Garmin website for their Pilot Pak pricing. The $862 figure would apply only to the GTN 750 and GTN 650. There would be separate charges for the 796, and even their "Lite" annual figure is $299.00. At this point I don't even know what Jeppesen is really charging me, as they waived the increase from the GNS 430W to the GTN 650. At renewal time I will run through the entire exercise with both Garmin and Jeppesen. I really don't mind the 28 day updates via computer - far better than all the paper filing I did for years and years, especially when I needed several binders to hold them all when flying across the country. I have been enjoying the Safe Taxi presentation, especially at the larger airports with multiple taxiways. As I mentioned in my PIREP, I am really pleased with the TIS-B traffic in the relative aircraft option display. As much as I hate paying these subscription costs, I do think that having up to date data is important. I suspect they treat the 796 as a portable. Probably to discourage people from using a Gizmo mount and treating it like a panel mount. I can't remember what my paper charts costs were, but I did a fair number of trip packs each year in addition to the hours I spent like you doing the great paper shuffle. Don't miss that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 To Bob & Bennett -- how many SD cards did you get with each GPS unit? My installer gave me two. If they both work, it will be nice since I can download to the extra one and swap it out. On the Aspen, I need to remember to bring the microSD card home to update it.   I got 2 SD cards with the 750. They are label GTN 6XX/7XX SUPP.DATA. One has to remain in the radio so I suppose Garmin intends us to update the SD card that is not in the radio on the monthly cycle and swap them out. They allow multiple downloads of the same data so I get the idle SD current after swapping. The 696 had a single SD card, it appears to be generic - no Garmin label. 2GB. The fresh data from the SD card uploads to the radio and the card would not have to remain in the radio unless you've created "check lists" on the card. These do not upload, at least I have not figured a way, so the card has to stay in the radio to view the check list. I intend to try a duplicating the 696 SD card so that I don't have to make an extra trip to the airport.  Garmin's discount packages help uses with multiple panel mounted GPSs but are no help to me with a 750 and a portable 696. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I studied the price comparison between Garmin and Jepp charts very carefully. Apples to apples Jepp is more expensive, just as I expected before I checked, I have 6 2" Jepp binders of paper charts and Jepp has always been better, but more expensive.  If I were still flying 250 hours a year in almost any weather as I did for a long time I would go with Jepp again. But I am now retired, expect to fly less than 100 hours per year, and will normally be able wait for better weather. The Garmin charts will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I studied the price comparison between Garmin and Jepp charts very carefully. Apples to apples Jepp is more expensive, just as I expected before I checked, I have 6 2" Jepp binders of paper charts and Jepp has always been better, but more expensive. If I were still flying 250 hours a year in almost any weather as I did for a long time I would go with Jepp again. But I am now retired, expect to fly less than 100 hours per year, and will normally be able wait for better weather. The Garmin charts will be fine. I thought I had studied them well too Bob. What snagged me was the Jepp website (that I posted above). The page clearly states what is included. And that should have been the databases in addition to the Nav data. I don't want to call it a bait and switch tactic but it is clearly misleading. I spoke to a couple of people at Jepp about the verbiage and they said nothing other than they would look into it. Well, it is still there. If I could cancel the Jepp and switch I would in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I thought I had studied them well too Bob. What snagged me was the Jepp website (that I posted above). The page clearly states what is included. And that should have been the databases in addition to the Nav data. I don't want to call it a bait and switch tactic but it is clearly misleading. I spoke to a couple of people at Jepp about the verbiage and they said nothing other than they would look into it. Well, it is still there. If I could cancel the Jepp and switch I would in a heartbeat. Â Â Are you sure you can't cancel the Jepp? When my plane was in the avionics shop being upgraded I called Jepp and told them to drop my subscription for the old GPS155. They ended the subscription effective when I called and refunded the pro rated amount. (I could have called a month earlier when the plane went into the shop but they wouldn't make it retroactive.)Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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