If you need/want the OEM 40:1 Gear Set

[Matthew P]

21 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Matthew P

You are tenacious! Thank you.

Did Mooney indicate why they wouldn't accept a pre-pay from an MSC?  Seems weird.

As others have mentioned, many of us would gladly toss in a few hundred bucks each.  Pick an MSC to place the order (so, NO financial risk to the MSC), and we'd be done!

Yes, ANY type of pre-payment would be a liability for the MSCs or individuals in the event Mooney were to go out of business or declare bankruptcy prior to the parts being received and inspected/accepted by Mooney. If Mooney ordered a parts run and during that 4-6 month went out of business or went bankrupt, there would be no one that could take possession of those parts to inspect/accept them on behalf of Mooney...the only workaround, if you will, would be if Mooney licensed them out to lets say Lasar...then it wouldn't matter if Mooney went under or bankrupt, Lasar would still be able to have the parts manufactured and they would be the ones to inspect/accept the parts for sale to the MSCs. 

[Matthew P]

58 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The company I used to work for would do that kind of thing. Meaning they would be the intermediary between you and the testing lab. Expect to pay about $5000 for that service. Maybe less. 

LOL, could you ask them if they do any Pro-Bono work

[Matthew P]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:40 PM, 201Steve said:

I have been talking to other type clubs, ones that are far more orphaned than Mooney. I will not name any names since there are rabble rousers among us. Guess what they do to keep their airplanes alive? Suprise! They make group buys for OPP and openly make available the inventory, sources, and supporting documentation. Have they ever been harassed by the FAA? No they haven’t. They  also don’t have internal saboteurs writing grievance letters to the FAA like what happened with the down lock blocks, so that’s helpful. 
 

But this is so silly, us acting like we have a factory when we in fact really do not, begging them to make the unprofitable parts they will not make now or ever. I can’t tell you how many people on here have “talked to Jonny”. They can’t do anything outside of a very narrow scope, as is evident. Perhaps the only helpful thing they’ve done is run a couple batches of no back springs. One part. Whoopdie doo. 
 

Time we just fall in line with the rest of the orphans  and follow the orphan instructions outlined by our regulatory body.

 

Well, that is what we are trying to do but until we get the required specs and drawings we can't meet the OPP requirements of proof that the OPP is equal to or better than OEM....If we can't show that, then there is a process to go through that is expensive and time consuming.

I (we) would appreciate it is you could put me in touch with some of those individuals so I'm not out here floundering or needlessly wasting time and effort, my personal email is MatthewPellegrino@yahoo.com

V/r

 

Matt

[KSMooniac]

I've reached out to a metallurgical tech fellow at work to see if he has a lead of getting a material test executed.  Unfortunately he is out of the office until Monday, but hopefully he'll have a more reasonable suggestion.  I don't know if we have that capability in-house, or if we could do an after-hours test either.

[EricJ]

FWIW, the reverse-engineering path is tenable for OPP, and it provides a means to reasonably duplicate the original part.

Another path is to just determine what the part needs to be, and duplicate the shape in a material and process that meets the requirements.    I was thinking about this today, that those gears probably aren't under that much stress, and you could determine how much with a load sensor on the gear actuator.   Go fly around and do some gear cycles at the max transit speeds and on jacks and see what it really needs to do, then with the jackscrew geometry and the motor torque you can figure out the loads on the gears.    You might be able to do it just from the max motor torque, come to think of it, and the three- or six-second gear transit times.

This would alleviate the need for a metallurgist, since the expected loads and other requirements could then be used to select a modern (and likely far better) alloy and process to fabricate the gears.

Just a thought.

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, the reverse-engineering path is tenable for OPP, and it provides a means to reasonably duplicate the original part.

Another path is to just determine what the part needs to be, and duplicate the shape in a material and process that meets the requirements.    I was thinking about this today, that those gears probably aren't under that much stress, and you could determine how much with a load sensor on the gear actuator.   Go fly around and do some gear cycles at the max transit speeds and on jacks and see what it really needs to do, then with the jackscrew geometry and the motor torque you can figure out the loads on the gears.    You might be able to do it just from the max motor torque, come to think of it, and the three- or six-second gear transit times.

This would alleviate the need for a metallurgist, since the expected loads and other requirements could then be used to select a modern (and likely far better) alloy and process to fabricate the gears.

Just a thought.

I've spent a little time along the same lines...worm gears have been around forever and I don't think our application is any thing special.  There are several manufacturers that have standard sets along with material selection guidelines.  I am still suspicious that, ultimately, Dukes may have just picked a standard gear set from an established manufacturer.  If I had exact dimensions I'd spend some time perusing the manufacturers' catalogs looking for a match.

[Matthew P]

19 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I've spent a little time along the same lines...worm gears have been around forever and I don't think our application is any thing special.  There are several manufacturers that have standard sets along with material selection guidelines.  I am still suspicious that, ultimately, Dukes may have just picked a standard gear set from an established manufacturer.  If I had exact dimensions I'd spend some time perusing the manufacturers' catalogs looking for a match.

Are you voulenteering as I can send you that info let me know

[Matthew P]

34 minutes ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, the reverse-engineering path is tenable for OPP, and it provides a means to reasonably duplicate the original part.

Another path is to just determine what the part needs to be, and duplicate the shape in a material and process that meets the requirements.    I was thinking about this today, that those gears probably aren't under that much stress, and you could determine how much with a load sensor on the gear actuator.   Go fly around and do some gear cycles at the max transit speeds and on jacks and see what it really needs to do, then with the jackscrew geometry and the motor torque you can figure out the loads on the gears.    You might be able to do it just from the max motor torque, come to think of it, and the three- or six-second gear transit times.

This would alleviate the need for a metallurgist, since the expected loads and other requirements could then be used to select a modern (and likely far better) alloy and process to fabricate the gears.

Just a thought.

Well, that's the issue to determine the appropriate material AND heat treatment, without a report, there is a litany of tests and use reports to be given to the FAA to demonstrate that it meets/exceeds OEM...

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Matthew P said:

LOL, could you ask them if they do any Pro-Bono work

Yea, they have to set up a new project, Accounting has to set up accounts for you and the vendors you want to deal with. Purchasing has to arrange for the service to be performed. Shipping/receiving has to receive the parts and send them to the lab and then receive them back from the lab. 
 

They normally did this service for big companies like Intel or Raytheon who wanted to buy something from somebody who wasn’t in their system. It was easier to have us buy it than qualify a new vendor.

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Are you voulenteering as I can send you that info let me know

@Matthew P

Yes, I am.

Please PM me.

Thanks!

[MikeOH]

@Matthew P

Before I retired I used Hi-Rel Labs (Spokane, WA https://www.hrlabs.com/) for analysis work for over two decades.  Very capable and reasonably priced.  While they specialize in microelectronics work they are very well equipped with materials analysis equipment including EDS (energy dispersive spectroscopy).  No idea if they would work directly with an individual, or would analyze a gear, but might be worth a phone call.  The company was family owned and run (Devaney).

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Well, that's the issue to determine the appropriate material AND heat treatment, without a report, there is a litany of tests and use reports to be given to the FAA to demonstrate that it meets/exceeds OEM...

Not for OPP unless you're shooting for PMA or a TSO or something.    It just needs to perform as well or better than the original and you can provide the required performance data, which could be determined as I suggested.    The gear shop (or whoever) can then determine the appropriate materials and process to meet those requirements.    You can also provide quality control procedures (which can be simple) and supervise via inspection.    You'd hit three of the five requirements that way, and you only really need one.

People often put higher hurdles on this than are really required.   The regs don't say, and none of the ACs say, that there are tons of hoops to jump through.   Usually it's the internet peanut gallery that says that.

[outermarker]

I doubt the gears have been heat-treated. It would seem like that would make the gears too hard and under load/stress the teeth would break easily. 

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, outermarker said:

I doubt the gears have been heat-treated. It would seem like that would make the gears too hard and under load/stress the teeth would break easily. 

I certainly can't say with any authority if the Mooney gears are heat treated.  What I have found from my limited research is that it is quite common for worm gears to be surface hardened; NOT through hardened.

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

@Matthew P

Yes, I am.

Please PM me.

Thanks!

Thanks, Just sent...appreciate it.

[Matthew P]

48 minutes ago, outermarker said:

I doubt the gears have been heat-treated. It would seem like that would make the gears too hard and under load/stress the teeth would break easily. 

Thanks, I may have misspoke in regards to heat treated, may be hardened though, I'm not sure...from what I understand the 40:1 gear set uses brass for the worm gear and steel of some sort for the worm shaft

[802flyer]

I wound up going down a bit of a rabbit hole today, actually while looking for a source for the gear seal in the Dukes 1057 actuator, since I'm likely pulling mine for inspection this month.   I discovered a couple things that may or may not be useful in the context of getting gears made or otherwise sourced somewhere:

Mooney SI M20-112A covers installing the 40:1 gears in 20:1 actuators, and describes how this makes the result "equivalent to a Dukes 1057 actuator".   I think the kit just got the gears from Dukes, so they are unlikely to be Mooney parts since the Dukes 1057 actuator has the 40:1 gears natively.   This may be why some of us with the Dukes 1057 aren't subject to the inspections that the other actuators are.   In other words, I don't think they were ever Mooney parts, they've always been sourced from Dukes.
The upshot of that is that Mooney may not know where they came from, either, since they're not their parts, and has no better idea of how to source them or get them made than anyone else.   It looks like they're Dukes parts.

So, still looking for a replacement for the shaft seal, I found that what was Dukes was ultimately acquired by Transdigm, who still exists.    Transdigm owns Champion Aerospace and AmSafe and a few other names people might recognize, and it appears that the most likely repository of what was Dukes is now Aero Fluid Products, which also still exists as a subsidiary of Transdigm.   

https://www.aerofluidproducts.com/

It doesn't appear that they still make, or would be interested in, anything remotely close to what we need.   It'd probably be a significant project for anybody there to research where the Dukes IP went and figure out who made gears for what actuators when, etc., etc.   In other words, the engineering data for these gears are probably lost to time.   

I think the upshot is that we're on our own here.   I don't think Mooney knows anything we don't or has any magic access to anything that we don't have access to.   It looks to me like OPP is the only way these parts can be sourced, and the group processes used successfully by other vintage aircraft communities (including here) are going to be the best route to success.  A reputable industrial gear company with an example article to duplicate is probably a good path forward.

Sounds like we need someone here to get hired at Transdigm and do some insider research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew P]

9 minutes ago, 802flyer said:

Sounds like we need someone here to get hired at Transdigm and do some insider research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've contacted them (aerofluidproducts.com) and currently waiting for them to respond, they said it may be sometime next week before they do so.  will let you know. They are the ones that Transdign gave the old Dukes account to.

 

[Pinecone]

22 hours ago, outermarker said:

I doubt the gears have been heat-treated. It would seem like that would make the gears too hard and under load/stress the teeth would break easily. 

Heat treating can be a multi step process.  Hardening, then annealing to the desired hardness/brittleness.

[Matthew P]

So, I found a gear manufacture that manufactures the same exact gear set, that we are looking for, for a "CUSTOMER" that ISN'T Mooney, he is reaching out to said customer to see if he is willing to contact me to discuss the ability of us ordering the gear sets from them. Was told it will be a day or so before the customer will be available to reach out.

So, hopefully this pans out and allows us an immediate sourcing for these gear sets...will let you know what I hear. I am still looking at other vendors though,  just in case.

V/r

 

Matt 

Edited October 8 by Matthew P

[N201MKTurbo]

It looks like the Piper Comanche actuator may use the same gears....

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, Matthew P said:

So, I found a gear manufacture that manufactures the same exact gear set, that we are looking for, for a "CUSTOMER" that ISN'T Mooney, he is reaching out to said customer to see if he is willing to contact me to discuss the ability of us ordering the gear sets from them. Was told it will be a day or so before the customer will be available to reach out.

Glad to hear it!

So, is this the same company (http://www.avongear.com/products/worms.html) that I found and pointed you to in a PM two days ago, or a different one?

[CL605]

FWIW, a few years back I went through the OPP process for the rubber gear donuts on a Beech Sundowner. Beech can supply them, but they are 3rd party products (Lord mfg?) and the wait time and cost are prohibitive. Beech was about $5000 for a set, the alternative was around $500. A company in South Africa produced the parts, and to keep it above board per FAA each order required that the purchaser sign off on a set of drawings saying "yes, please make me this part per these drawings." And we all placed separate orders and paid separately. I sold the Sundowner 3 years ago (to buy a 201J) but to my knowledge none of the club members have had any troubles with the parts or the FAA.

If the gears become available at a somewhat reasonable price, put me down for a set, OPP or otherwise.

[EricJ]

29 minutes ago, CL605 said:

FWIW, a few years back I went through the OPP process for the rubber gear donuts on a Beech Sundowner. Beech can supply them, but they are 3rd party products (Lord mfg?) and the wait time and cost are prohibitive. Beech was about $5000 for a set, the alternative was around $500. A company in South Africa produced the parts, and to keep it above board per FAA each order required that the purchaser sign off on a set of drawings saying "yes, please make me this part per these drawings." And we all placed separate orders and paid separately. I sold the Sundowner 3 years ago (to buy a 201J) but to my knowledge none of the club members have had any troubles with the parts or the FAA.

If the gears become available at a somewhat reasonable price, put me down for a set, OPP or otherwise.

Same guy makes them for Mooneys.   I think it's a practical option, but many are suspicious of the process.

https://avunlimited.co/product/mooney-landing-gear-shock-disk/

 

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, CL605 said:

FWIW, a few years back I went through the OPP process for the rubber gear donuts on a Beech Sundowner. Beech can supply them, but they are 3rd party products (Lord mfg?) and the wait time and cost are prohibitive. Beech was about $5000 for a set, the alternative was around $500. A company in South Africa produced the parts, and to keep it above board per FAA each order required that the purchaser sign off on a set of drawings saying "yes, please make me this part per these drawings." And we all placed separate orders and paid separately. I sold the Sundowner 3 years ago (to buy a 201J) but to my knowledge none of the club members have had any troubles with the parts or the FAA.

If the gears become available at a somewhat reasonable price, put me down for a set, OPP or otherwise.

Thanks, I'll reach out to them as well..I appreciate your time.