Fuel Pressure Transducer... &

[JayMatt]

So, I had one of these go out and it was part number880030-503 &501 and the replacement part is 940124-501 according to Lasar. They are both discontinued and I'm SOL as far as I can tell unless I move on to another Tech. I'm not opposed to doing that but I don't want to be forced into it just yet. 

Aircraft spruce has this part and it says

TRANSDUCER,FUEL PRESS 3060-00017	3060-00017	05-07318	$186.99	Quantity
FUEL PRESSURE TRANSDUCER 880007-50125	880007-501	05-07463	$185.90	Quantity

These are listed for Mooney M20 C&J

Anyone have info or insite on these things? 

Also,

When the lovely turn coordinator went out. I still have the ball obviously and that's really all I need. Does anyone know if the Turn Coordinator is what drives out stock auto pilot? 

It's looking like a panel is in the future, but like I said, i want to think about it and plan it out and not jump into because I have to. 

 

Thanks,

 

[PT20J]

According to the IPC, 880030-501,503 are fuel flow transducers.

880007-501 is a fuel pressure transducer for S/N 24-0378-1417 and 1686-2999.

The second part number you showed is a PMA replacement for the 880007-501 per the PMA Products, Inc website.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, JayMatt said:

When the lovely turn coordinator went out. I still have the ball obviously and that's really all I need. Does anyone know if the Turn Coordinator is what drives out stock auto pilot? 

There's no stock autopilot. The J could have had a Century or a King from Mooney, or if it was a very early J, like the first few months at the end of 1976, it could have even had a Pathfinder. If it had an autopilot added over the years it could be an STec. Post a picture of your panel and we'll figure it out.

[JayMatt]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:36 AM, PT20J said:

According to the IPC, 880030-501,503 are fuel flow transducers.

880007-501 is a fuel pressure transducer for S/N 24-0378-1417 and 1686-2999.

The second part number you showed is a PMA replacement for the 880007-501 per the PMA Products, Inc website.

Sorry it looks like my previous post didn't go through or was deleted. But it looks like I'm safe according to what you are saying and I was misquoted by lasar. 

 

On 1/12/2024 at 4:33 PM, LANCECASPER said:

There's no stock autopilot. The J could have had a Century or a King from Mooney, or if it was a very early J, like the first few months at the end of 1976, it could have even had a Pathfinder. If it had an autopilot added over the years it could be an STec. Post a picture of your panel and we'll figure it out.

I have a century auto pilot from what I remember. I'll take a picture when I can get down there in non freezing weather. 

[Ragsf15e]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:25 AM, JayMatt said:

So, I had one of these go out and it was part number880030-503 &501 and the replacement part is 940124-501 according to Lasar. They are both discontinued and I'm SOL as far as I can tell unless I move on to another Tech. I'm not opposed to doing that but I don't want to be forced into it just yet. 

Aircraft spruce has this part and it says

TRANSDUCER,FUEL PRESS 3060-00017	3060-00017	05-07318	$186.99	Quantity
FUEL PRESSURE TRANSDUCER 880007-50125	880007-501	05-07463	$185.90	Quantity

These are listed for Mooney M20 C&J

Anyone have info or insite on these things? 

Also,

When the lovely turn coordinator went out. I still have the ball obviously and that's really all I need. Does anyone know if the Turn Coordinator is what drives out stock auto pilot? 

It's looking like a panel is in the future, but like I said, i want to think about it and plan it out and not jump into because I have to. 

 

Thanks,

 

One thing with the TC… depending on your other instruments, it may be required to be functional for ifr if you’re planning to use the airplane for ifr.  It should be placarded and cb pulled/marked if it’s inop.  The ball is easy to find another option.

[JayMatt]

6 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

One thing with the TC… depending on your other instruments, it may be required to be functional for ifr if you’re planning to use the airplane for ifr.  It should be placarded and cb pulled/marked if it’s inop.  The ball is easy to find another option.

I don't have the rating so I don't intend to use it or need to. I realize it will be needed to sell the aircraft one day but not now. It's also the instrument giving me issues in my headset so I'm thinking of leaving it disconnected and labeling it inop. 

What instruments do I need or what else can I have besides a TC? I have an attitude indicator and the ball still. I'm really looking into what I can have besides this old TC cause it's hard to find parts for and I read lots of complaints about them from a reliability perspective. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, JayMatt said:

I don't have the rating so I don't intend to use it or need to. I realize it will be needed to sell the aircraft one day but not now. It's also the instrument giving me issues in my headset so I'm thinking of leaving it disconnected and labeling it inop. 

What instruments do I need or what else can I have besides a TC? I have an attitude indicator and the ball still. I'm really looking into what I can have besides this old TC cause it's hard to find parts for and I read lots of complaints about them from a reliability perspective. 

In its place you could install a different tc or a different adi.  There aren’t super cheap options, but some kind of electric adi (battery backup would be great) like an rc allen, gi275, etc would work.  Im not sure about an av30 or g5 but they may also be options.

[JayMatt]

On 1/12/2024 at 11:36 AM, PT20J said:

According to the IPC, 880030-501,503 are fuel flow transducers.

880007-501 is a fuel pressure transducer for S/N 24-0378-1417 and 1686-2999.

The second part number you showed is a PMA replacement for the 880007-501 per the PMA Products, Inc website.

Well I'm officially lost.

I just got a call today from the instrument shop and they don't think I have a gauge problem. I had ordered a new transducer Part# 05-07463 MFR Model# CA880007-501 and installed it, and got the same 10lbs of pressure reading as the old one. Oddly enough, when I first installed it, I turned the boost pump on and it went up to 20lbs. it waivered 3 or 4 lbs but I figured that was just the boost pump or who knows what and I would try that weekend after I put everything back together and ran it. The weekend came and I pulled the plane out and flipped the boost pressure switch on and 10lbs. I cussed for sure. So I started the plane and ran it anyway and still 10lbs. Did everything I could to make it change and it pretty much ran a steady 10lbs, exactly half of what's needed. (FYI a manual gauge tied into the line says 20lbs) 

So I put the plane up and watched another pretty flying day go by. I went back and checked every wire to see if there was a broken or bad wire somewhere. Multi meter indicated the same voltage at the transducer as it did the gauge. Added another ground wire to check that and still no change. That's when I finally decided to take the gauges out and send them to a shop. And now here I sit not knowing what to do. Maybe it's the wrong transducer? Shop said that we could send it to another shop in Dallas and see what they say... are gauges really that hard to understand? Anyone know how to test these things myself? 

[Ragsf15e]

48 minutes ago, JayMatt said:

Well I'm officially lost.

I just got a call today from the instrument shop and they don't think I have a gauge problem. I had ordered a new transducer Part# 05-07463 MFR Model# CA880007-501 and installed it, and got the same 10lbs of pressure reading as the old one. Oddly enough, when I first installed it, I turned the boost pump on and it went up to 20lbs. it waivered 3 or 4 lbs but I figured that was just the boost pump or who knows what and I would try that weekend after I put everything back together and ran it. The weekend came and I pulled the plane out and flipped the boost pressure switch on and 10lbs. I cussed for sure. So I started the plane and ran it anyway and still 10lbs. Did everything I could to make it change and it pretty much ran a steady 10lbs, exactly half of what's needed. (FYI a manual gauge tied into the line says 20lbs) 

So I put the plane up and watched another pretty flying day go by. I went back and checked every wire to see if there was a broken or bad wire somewhere. Multi meter indicated the same voltage at the transducer as it did the gauge. Added another ground wire to check that and still no change. That's when I finally decided to take the gauges out and send them to a shop. And now here I sit not knowing what to do. Maybe it's the wrong transducer? Shop said that we could send it to another shop in Dallas and see what they say... are gauges really that hard to understand? Anyone know how to test these things myself? 

So you changed the transducer and still get the same readings, but a manual gage indicates higher.  What actual gage is the transducer feeding? The stock gage?  And has that been redone?

[LANCECASPER]

50 minutes ago, JayMatt said:

Well I'm officially lost.

I just got a call today from the instrument shop and they don't think I have a gauge problem. I had ordered a new transducer Part# 05-07463 MFR Model# CA880007-501 and installed it, and got the same 10lbs of pressure reading as the old one. Oddly enough, when I first installed it, I turned the boost pump on and it went up to 20lbs. it waivered 3 or 4 lbs but I figured that was just the boost pump or who knows what and I would try that weekend after I put everything back together and ran it. The weekend came and I pulled the plane out and flipped the boost pressure switch on and 10lbs. I cussed for sure. So I started the plane and ran it anyway and still 10lbs. Did everything I could to make it change and it pretty much ran a steady 10lbs, exactly half of what's needed. (FYI a manual gauge tied into the line says 20lbs) 

So I put the plane up and watched another pretty flying day go by. I went back and checked every wire to see if there was a broken or bad wire somewhere. Multi meter indicated the same voltage at the transducer as it did the gauge. Added another ground wire to check that and still no change. That's when I finally decided to take the gauges out and send them to a shop. And now here I sit not knowing what to do. Maybe it's the wrong transducer? Shop said that we could send it to another shop in Dallas and see what they say... are gauges really that hard to understand? Anyone know how to test these things myself? 

This is the reason that people eventually go to a JPI900 or 930 or an EI MVP-50, etc - to replace all of the old factory gauges with one modern display with new transducers etc. These old instruments go one at time and will end up costing more than biting the bullet and doing the upgrade.

[PT20J]

If it's not the transducer and it's not the wiring, it must be the gauge. There must be some used ones available with all the people pulling them out for engine monitors,

[JayMatt]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

So you changed the transducer and still get the same readings, but a manual gage indicates higher.  What actual gage is the transducer feeding? The stock gage?  And has that been redone?

Correct, 2 transducers old one and new one both 10lbs. The manual gauge says 20lbs. 

[JayMatt]

Granted the manual gauge said 20 at a different point in the fuel line but it should all equalize. But just to be sure, we are going to check at the transducer point this time and see if somehow there is a 50% clog? That doesn't make logical sense but we are at a loss right now. 

Anyone know a way to test I'm getting the correct voltage or resistance output from the transducer would be much appreciated.

12v is measured at the (ing) point and I'm assuming 20psi should be a fraction of that at the (send). The second connection on the transducer just goes straight to the engine block as a ground. I ran a secondary ground and no change, so It's probably not the ground.

[PT20J]

According to the troubleshooting section in the Service Manual, the pressure gauges should read full scale when disconnected from the transducer and zero when the transducer wire is grounded. I would try this with both the fuel pressure and oil pressure gauge and see if they both act the same.

[JayMatt]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

If it's not the transducer and it's not the wiring, it must be the gauge. There must be some used ones available with all the people pulling them out for engine monitors,

Technically I don't know if it is the Transducer or not. All I really know is that the old one and the new one read the same thing. Technically speaking, they could both be bad or maybe it's not the right one... I don't really know, but I got the Part# 05-07463 MFR Model# CA880007-501 and my plane is 24-0593. I also don't know if it's potentially the send wire? I don't know the best way to test that wire.

I tested the ground wire and grounded to multiple different locations. I didn't check the ground to the gauge box itself but all the other gauges work fine so I assume that's not the issue. 

What I'm trying to find out is what the send wire should read when tested and how that should be tested with a multi meter just so I can check that box off as checked. And what is a way to test the transducer just to make sure it's not a defective just like the first one. Does anyone know how to test a transducer?

The crazy part in the whole thing is that when I put the new transducer in, it read 20 for a few seconds on the boost pump BUT it did kind of falter there at 20. When I came back a few days later to fly it, it was 10 like the other one. So maybe that's my clue? Maybe bad send wire? Send wire seems implausible if it holds a steady 10psi. if it jumped around some, I'd think it was likely but it reads it solid.  

Just to further air out my thoughts here, do I need to order that wire with the print on it 21DKOIA22? 

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, JayMatt said:

Just to further air out my thoughts here, do I need to order that wire with the print on it 21DKOIA22? 

There is nothing special about that wire - it is just a length of 22 AWG aircraft wire with appropriate terminations. Wiring labels are explained in the chapter 91 of the service manual:

21 = 14V

DK = Instrument, fuel pressure

01 = first wire in sequence (this will increment every time the circuit passes through a connector)

A = configuration

22 = wire gauge

The higher initial reading when installing the new transducer may have been caused by compressing the air in the line. A restriction in the line will slow the response (that's how snubbers work) but will not change the steady pressure reading.

[JayMatt]

17 hours ago, PT20J said:

There is nothing special about that wire - it is just a length of 22 AWG aircraft wire with appropriate terminations. Wiring labels are explained in the chapter 91 of the service manual:

21 = 14V

DK = Instrument, fuel pressure

01 = first wire in sequence (this will increment every time the circuit passes through a connector)

A = configuration

22 = wire gauge

The higher initial reading when installing the new transducer may have been caused by compressing the air in the line. A restriction in the line will slow the response (that's how snubbers work) but will not change the steady pressure reading.

Welp, when I went to get everything from the shop last night, he said he tested the old transducer and it wasn't working correctly. It wouldn't report over 20lbs. So he never tested the gauge.... I couldn't convince him to either as he was convinced it was the transducer even though the new one was still on the plane. SO, I went back to the hand and tested both myself. Old one is bad and doesn't test correctly but the new one works just fine. So it has to be the gauges I would think. I have no way of actually testing them myself but this whole thing is getting old. I still don't know if it's the wire or the gauge but I refused to put the gauges back in last night just to take them right back out. I brought the gauges into our I&E shop today and I'm going to see if they can figure out how to test them with the help of Maybe Air Dallas. 

Are any of the JPI's approved as the primary engine monitoring? And is the 930 the only one that would have fuel tanks on it? I refuse to let this problem beat me but I'm an angry click away from having a JPI.

[Pinecone]

900 and 930 can be primary.

Both have fuel quantity

[JayMatt]

52 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

900 and 930 can be primary.

Both have fuel quantity

So if I understand it, the only way to replace this is with a JPI 900 series. Otherwise I still have to go get it fixed? the 900 series looks to be 10k all in... nice.  May as well just do a whole panel at that point

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, JayMatt said:

So if I understand it, the only way to replace this is with a JPI 900 series. Otherwise I still have to go get it fixed? the 900 series looks to be 10k all in... nice.  May as well just do a whole panel at that point

Understand the angry click.  I’ve been there.  There are lots of options though… EI, garmin, jpi, salvage, possibly even a stand alone fuel pressure gauge and mark the current one inop?  Depends on what you want.

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, JayMatt said:

So if I understand it, the only way to replace this is with a JPI 900 series. Otherwise I still have to go get it fixed? the 900 series looks to be 10k all in... nice.  May as well just do a whole panel at that point

$10K is a drop in the bucket of a full panel redo.

 

[McMooney]

4 hours ago, JayMatt said:

So if I understand it, the only way to replace this is with a JPI 900 series. Otherwise I still have to go get it fixed? the 900 series looks to be 10k all in... nice.  May as well just do a whole panel at that point

I"m going the the garmin gi-275.

as for your fuel problem, try giving brian isabell a call : 832.595.5008 bkaviation@kaxh

 

[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, JayMatt said:

So if I understand it, the only way to replace this is with a JPI 900 series. Otherwise I still have to go get it fixed? the 900 series looks to be 10k all in... nice.  May as well just do a whole panel at that point

BAS parts sales is parting out a 231, I would give them a call and see if you can buy the instrument cluster. https://baspartsales.com/

[JayMatt]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

BAS parts sales is parting out a 231, I would give them a call and see if you can buy the instrument cluster. https://baspartsales.com/

I brought the instrument to my I&E shop at work and we solved the issue. It is the gauge. It's reading exactly half of what it should. I could take it out myself and addjust it as it's no different than any other gauge built in that time period. BUT the FAA doesn't like that stuff. So It's going to Air Dallas Instruments for a rebuild. They found the paperwork on these gauges. I also have a few backup options I found if need be. 

Just goes to show, not all IA's or instrument shops are equal. 

[JayMatt]

We’re sorry this package has experienced a sortation delay. The package has been rerouted to the correct destination.

 

Life just keeps getting better... Pretty sure my gauges are now lost. They are insured some, but not enough for a new JPI or anything...  when it rains it pours..