Cosmetic upgrades: before or after.

[Ben Woodard]

I have an old 1965 M20C which I’ve had for about 22 years. It has been a great plane but I’m really feeling the urge to upgrade to something newer and turbocharged; I now live in Truckee CA and am based out of KTRK. The old C model just doesn’t have the pep to takeoff from 5900’ then quickly climb up to an en route altitude which is almost always over 10K around here. My hope is sell a classic car that I have, a DeLorean, and the old M20C, and use it to put a good down payment on a K model.

The paint was done in the summer of 1999 and is still in pretty decent condition. It could use a few touchups here and there but it is OK. However, the interior was last redone in I think 1974 and it really is showing its age. The interior has not been a priority for me.

My question is: Knowing that often times people buy with their eyes, should I upgrade the interior and fix some of the paint chips before putting the plane on the market or just leave that for the next person? In other words, is it likely worth the investment to put some money down to make it look nicer expecting that I would get a notable portion of it back when I sell it. Mostly, I was thinking about reupholstering the seats with leather and replacing the carpet. The plastic is in remarkably good shape except for the door so I think that can stay.

The other thing that is floating around in the back of my mind is, if it doesn’t sell for a price that I’m willing to accept then I have a nicer looking plane.

[hammdo]

Pics of what you have help. Interior- you can do some of the interior yourself if you’re so inclined. 
 

Total time engine/prop, tank sealed, etc can give a better idea of where you stand. Depends on price asking - if doing any interior work will be returned in sale price.

Just a note - I used to work on DeLoreans back in the day - does yours have the Volvo or original engine?

-Don

[Rick Junkin]

It depends on what kind of buyer you find.

Some folks are looking for a solid airplane they can upgrade the way they want it, and this would probably be your best case if the airplane is mechanically excellent. No effort required by you other than putting it on the market at a fair price.

Other folks are looking for a "turn-key" purchase which you may or may not have, depending on the mechanical condition and what's in the panel, by upgrading the interior yourself. This is more difficult in several ways, because every airplane these folks look at is "not quite right" in some way and your sale would be competing with airplanes that have a better this or that. With interiors and paint you run the risk of upgrading to something a potential buyer won't like, although this is less of a risk with a properly well done interior. The new interior would be a plus and get some folks to look more closely but may not be enough to seal the deal. If the paint isn't a good "10 foot" condition a professional quality touch-up wouldn't hurt but may not help significantly if the whole airplane looks aged and in need of some attention. 25 years is a long time for aircraft paint.

It sounds like you have an idea of what you'd like to get for the airplane. How does that align with the market value as is? Anything you spend on it now will only marginally be returned to you in increased value, so I'd make the decision on how much you're willing to spend to sell the airplane and base your upgrade decisions on what you can do for that amount.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Unless you have a bunch of free time and want to do a bunch of work on a plane I would say sell as is.  You’ll likely be trading dollar for dollar, in particular if you account for your time.  Spend the money on the new plane.  

[Schllc]

Mechanical should happen before marketing to show a buyer you keep up with the service. 
doing upgrades like interior will likely make it sell quicker, but will not likely pay for the cost in increased price. 
best to just price appropriately and let the buyer use their tastes and discretion for cosmetic stuff. 
selling quicker does save money, just depends on your timeframe, ability to carry two planes if you want to buy now… 

good luck!

[Rusty Pilot]

17 hours ago, hammdo said:

Pics of what you have help. Interior- you can do some of the interior yourself if you’re so inclined. 
 

Total time engine/prop, tank sealed, etc can give a better idea of where you stand. Depends on price asking - if doing any interior work will be returned in sale price.

Just a note - I used to work on DeLoreans back in the day - does yours have the Volvo or original engine?

-Don

Don, I thought the original engines were produced by Volvo.  My Dad had one back in the day and my brother still has one.

[Pinecone]

A full on Aerocomfort like interior will run about $25,000.  An Airtex will run about $12,000 (with shop doing the install).   

Do you think someone will pay that much more for your plane with the interior?  Assuming they like it.

And if you do it yourself to save money, you are giving away your time.

[hammdo]

10 hours ago, Rusty Pilot said:

Don, I thought the original engines were produced by Volvo.  My Dad had one back in the day and my brother still has one.

I was referring to the 2.7 engine that was a DeLorean spec’d version. I think there were ~35 of those - Maybe they were only in Europe. I believe they were ~155 HP versions of the Volvo engine where as the ‘typical’ version were detuned - 130 HP version.

Been almost 40 years ago for me since I worked on them - do remember some of the ‘quality’ Issues at the time though..

Still, a fun car to drive…

-Don

[carusoam]

Hey Ben!

20+ years of owning an M20C, wow!

Congrats on your first MS post!  
 

Marketing thoughts…

1) Calling an M20C old… probably won’t help any…

2) Everyone knows how old all Mooneys are by their alphabet code… even M20Rs are old.  

3) Upgrading to sell… houses, cars, planes…

Unless you know the buyer…  whatever colors or device you select, would the buyer want that?

Can you get upgrades done at a lower cost than the buyer…

4) Buyers can have better skills at upgrading planes than you have… and can be driven away by what you select.

5) Price the plane appropriately to reflect its current status.  A good idea.

6) Putting lipstick on it probably won’t make things better…  addressing wear and tear items… A good idea.
wash and wax, clean and ready the inside for sale…

7) Address any and all AW issues… these are the usual things that get in the way during a PPI…

8) Post pics, plane and car!

9) Start the search for a nice M20K! Don’t wait… which one interests you the most?

10) Got your IR?  Do you like needles or color screens?

Will you be flying solo or with family?  Keep your eye on UL, Some M20Ks are fully loaded with stuff, for maximum travel!

You have been approved to upgrade!

I went from M20C to M20R… after a decade.  The M20R is just like the M20C, just more Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

10 hours ago, hammdo said:

I was referring to the 2.7 engine that was a DeLorean spec’d version. I think there were ~35 of those - Maybe they were only in Europe. I believe they were ~155 HP versions of the Volvo engine where as the ‘typical’ version were detuned - 130 HP version.

Been almost 40 years ago for me since I worked on them - do remember some of the ‘quality’ Issues at the time though..

Still, a fun car to drive…

-Don

If I remember correctly DeLoreans had a version of the PRV V-6, a joint effort by Peugeot, Renault and Volvo.

[Ben Woodard]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:09 AM, hammdo said:

Pics of what you have help. Interior- you can do some of the interior yourself if you’re so inclined. 
 

Total time engine/prop, tank sealed, etc can give a better idea of where you stand. Depends on price asking - if doing any interior work will be returned in sale price.

Just a note - I used to work on DeLoreans back in the day - does yours have the Volvo or original engine?

-Don

I guess I am so inclined. I was thinking of doing some of the interior myself. The carpet has like 40 years of stains on it. I figured that I could pull it out and install a new carpet. Then I was thinking of having an upholsterer who’s familiar with aviation redo the seats. My wife is an artist and was going to help pick colors.

Regarding working on DeLoreans - oh cool. I’ve done a fair bit of that myself.

There is a funny story about the DeLorean. The father of Paul Lowen, the guy who used to own LASAR, had a DeLorean and was putting it up for sale when I showed up for an owner assisted annual one time. I needed a car at the time and had just come back from Burning Man and wanted something cool and interesting and so I kind of started out trying to buy Paul Lowen’s father’s DeLorean but we just couldn’t come to an agreement. As part of the negotiation process, I searched for comps and had researched several other DeLoreans and when I was frustrated with Paul’s father I bought one of them. I think it was Robert Brown the service manager at LASAR that later told me, that the underlying problem was that Paul’s father really didn’t want to part with it even though he was getting to the age when he really shouldn’t be driving. Evidently, it took a few more months for him to finally get to a place where he was willing to let it go.

The DeLorean was my daily driver for a couple of years and we had some really good times for a while until at one point, I kind of raged out trying to parallel park it on a steep hill in SF and I went off and bought a Tesla Roadster. Plus by that point, all the attention was starting to get old. I realized it was kind of like dating a celebrity, everyone feels at liberty to come up to you and talk to you but it is not about you, it is about who you are with. Sure it was great having my car featured in hip-hop videos, and the porn shoots were — uh — entertaining but people were not at all interested in me, just the car. 

Anyway, here are some unflattering shots of my current interior which I sent off to the upholsterer so that he could give me a quote
and a couple of shots of the DeLorean (which really needs a bath - I just bought a case of kitchen stainless polish, the best stuff)

[Ben Woodard]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:51 PM, carusoam said:

Hey Ben!

20+ years of owning an M20C, wow!

Congrats on your first MS post!  
 

Marketing thoughts…

1) Calling an M20C old… probably won’t help any…

2) Everyone knows how old all Mooneys are by their alphabet code… even M20Rs are old.  

3) Upgrading to sell… houses, cars, planes…

Unless you know the buyer…  whatever colors or device you select, would the buyer want that?

Can you get upgrades done at a lower cost than the buyer…

4) Buyers can have better skills at upgrading planes than you have… and can be driven away by what you select.

5) Price the plane appropriately to reflect its current status.  A good idea.

6) Putting lipstick on it probably won’t make things better…  addressing wear and tear items… A good idea.
wash and wax, clean and ready the inside for sale…

7) Address any and all AW issues… these are the usual things that get in the way during a PPI…

8) Post pics, plane and car!

9) Start the search for a nice M20K! Don’t wait… which one interests you the most?

10) Got your IR?  Do you like needles or color screens?

Will you be flying solo or with family?  Keep your eye on UL, Some M20Ks are fully loaded with stuff, for maximum travel!

You have been approved to upgrade!

I went from M20C to M20R… after a decade.  The M20R is just like the M20C, just more Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

Lots of good points there. Thank you.

Really thinking about it, I have to admit that I’m not quite ready to sell either the Mooney or the DeLorean yet and by that I do not mean, not emotionally ready to sell. I mean, there are a bunch of steps getting ready to sell a plane. These include things like you mentioned:
5) Price the plane appropriately. — I haven’t even plugged into VREF yet.
6) Wash and wax - need to do that
7) Address AW issues - just took it on a family vacation after annual and found a couple of squawks. Haven’t made it to the shop yet.
8) Take, gather and post pictures.
plus getting all the logbooks in order.

I’m more at the beginning of process than what I would call “ready”.

10) Yeah both I and the previous owner got our IRs in this plane. I grew up on the east coast where you actually have weather but I have to admit that I’m a west coast IFR pilot and soon after I got my IR, I really came to understand the limitations of this plane. In low lands of the the east it is fine, and out here It is fine for a quick “pop through the marine layer” but crossing the Sierras or Trinity mountains IFR in the winter when we actually have IMC is really not possible in this plane. You are starting to run out climb performance just as you are hitting the freezing layers and the MEA is still thousands of feet above you. I pulled quite a few “reverse course, descend below freezing levels to shed ice” aborts as a freshly minted Instrument pilot before I learned this.

I’m personally a color screens kind of guy but I’ve always flown needles. Probably doesn’t matter to me  but I would say that I’ve changed my last vacuum pump, The next time one dies on me, I’m going digital.

[AndreiC]

I bought 8 months ago a 1970 E model with a rattier interior than yours. My main considerations were the good mechanical condition (400 hours on a quality overhaul, almost new cylinders, good shops maintaining it) and ok avionics for what I wanted (autopilot and LPV capable GPS). Took some convincing my wife that the ratty interior was not a sign of a bad plane. 
 

It ended up being the right decision and I am happy with it, but the number of hours I’ve put into fixing the interior far exceeded what I originally expected. I’d say on the order of 100 hours total is not unreasonable. I’m happy with how it came out, but I sure wish someone else did the job — it’s not fun. I’d say, like the ones before, fix the easy things (carpet is relatively easy, and if you find a good upholsterer for the seats), but don’t start pulling plastic panels, repainting, fixing cracks etc. 

[Ben Woodard]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:58 PM, AndreiC said:

I bought 8 months ago a 1970 E model with a rattier interior than yours. My main considerations were the good mechanical condition (400 hours on a quality overhaul, almost new cylinders, good shops maintaining it) and ok avionics for what I wanted (autopilot and LPV capable GPS). Took some convincing my wife that the ratty interior was not a sign of a bad plane. 
 

It ended up being the right decision and I am happy with it, but the number of hours I’ve put into fixing the interior far exceeded what I originally expected. I’d say on the order of 100 hours total is not unreasonable. I’m happy with how it came out, but I sure wish someone else did the job — it’s not fun. I’d say, like the ones before, fix the easy things (carpet is relatively easy, and if you find a good upholsterer for the seats), but don’t start pulling plastic panels, repainting, fixing cracks etc. 

That is pretty much exactly what I’ve decided to do. Do the easy non-mechanical stuff and have the mechanic address the few squawks. The kicker for me was the difference between VREF value in one condition vs. in another condition. Pricing the plane with that taken into account just is too much for me. The Mooney has been a part of the family. It is how I met my current wife which led to my daughter. Plus, there is still some limited debate about keeping the plane vs. upgrading. 

The mechanical stuff on the airplane is really good, that is where I’ve put most of my airplane dollars over the years. Looks have been a secondary concern.

I totally understand the concern with the next buyer not liking it. I’ve seen some interiors which make me cringe. My wife is an artist though and I think if we steer towards timeless practical design and not something “stylish” in the current vernacular or “trendy” then we’ll be fine.