Looking for a M20F

[mschmuff]

[Hank]

I know of a top-notch F for sale, with 530W & MX-20, HSI, speed brakes, recent paint, etc., etc., but it's well outside your targeted number.

From what I've seen, there are no "bargains" when plane shopping. You either pay for good condition and installed extras, or you can improve the condition and choose your own upgrades on a pay-as-you-go schedule for 50-75% higher surcharge(s). Shop and buy based on engine condition, maintenance history and installed avionics and you should do well. Buy cheap, and you will often pay the difference and then some later on.

For comparison, look what it costs to purchase and install a 430W versus your gently-used one for 9 AMU. I guarantee it will make it look like a bargain!

[rbridges]

I see what you're saying.  70K for an F is high, but you will not get a comparably equipped J for that money, either.  Overall, I agree with your thinking.  If I started spending 70-80, I'd probably start looking at J models.

[jwilkins]

[dmc]

I'm also thinking about a F model and seeing the same thing.  But I just assume it means I need to spend a little more for one that I like.  I talked to a guy that had one for 39k, but it needed paint and interior, and the avionics were old.  I would be better off paying 60K for one nicer.  The 39k might be fine if you wern't concerned about the paint and interior, but I am.  But I'm optimistic and I'm not in a hurry, and I'm starting to sell a few stocks and bonds so I have the cash in hand if a good one pop's up.

Also after reading some of the post on how short a runway you can land has me worried.  My home base has the 9/27 at 75'x2000.  No problem with the 172 and 40 degree flaps, but I'm wondering if a novice will have trouble with a Mooney there.

 

[KSMooniac]

5 years ago when I was shopping/buying I expected to pay $80k for an F with an IFR GPS and some speed mods, and good cosmetics.  I doubt you'll fine a really nice one for $50k today, so you should prioritize your wish list and try to get as many "wants" as possible and plan to do the rest when you're able.  If it were me, I would put cosmetics/interior at the bottom of the list since you can do the interior yourself and put some sweat equity in to save money.  Paint is subjective, and I'd rather get a discount for a plane that needs paint (so long as there isn't rampant corrosion) and paint it to my specs.  You should also consider looking nationwide if you're picky and bargain-hunting, otherwise you might have to be very, very patient.  Also, for reference have you read Jimmy Garrison's market evaluations in the MAPA Log?  He published a good evaluation tool, so you should play with it and see what you can expect to get for $50k.

2000' runways are a bit sporty IMO for Mooneys unless they are free of obstacles on both ends for quite a ways.  I wouldn't base there as a Mooney novice either...but you should be able to train enough quickly to get comfortable enough. 

[gregwatts]

2000' is do-able in a Mooney.......but no room for error.

As far as asking prices.......make offers! When I was shopping for my J model, I discovered a lot of "optimistic" sellers. I made several offers on different planes and one person accepted and I fly a 201. Be patient and use diligence and educate yourself as to what you are shopping for.

[dmc]

9-27 is 2000', 18-36 is 3800'.  I guess I could always wait for the wind to blow North or South.  As far as obstacles the short runway is not to bad,  nothing on one end, but parked planes and a power lines a few hundred ft to clear on the other.

As far as buying, I originally was hoping to be able to spend less than 50k also.  I'm not sure if that's doable, but we will just have to see.  I have just started watching and there are quite a few for under 60k, and they still seam to be listed for quite some time.  Ive got some wiggle room, but I'm not sure just how much I want to spend.  

 

[KSMooniac]

I'd take 3800' and a 15 knot crosswind over 2000' and a headwind.  Mooneys generally can do very well in a crosswind, so just practice both short fields and crosswind ops and it can be safe no matter which runway you use.  My home base in Windy Wichita only has 18-36, and the only time I remember scrubbing/delaying a trip was for 45 knot crosswinds that were unusually bad.  There was apparently one operation that entire day... a bizjet that landed before it got really, really bad, but otherwise the airport was *dead*.

 

[aerobat95]

[aerobat95]

According to AOPA.org aircraft valuation

1974F- 3600 TTAF, 500 SMOH, 201 windshield, 430W, new paint, new interior, Stec 50, dig fuel flow, Strikefinder, mode s

83,300

1977 Mooney J - everything the same

102,200

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Went in and out of a 2000' Texas strip with not much room on either side for error on a hot Labor Day in 2010.  I was just fine, but was only at about 600' MSL and only had 1 additional pax and Probably 40 gallons.

I may have gone with full fuel or 1 more passenger.  But not both (I forget what the performance charts said).  It's doable, but you gotta be on your game to be safe.

Also, you should do some real-world testing on a longer runway and compare your actual performance to the performance charts in your POH.

Then when you are faced with a maximum performance situation, you know what extra fudge factor, if any, to add.

[mschmuff]

Great feedback folks!!  I get that limiting myself to the East Coast is a killer but when you start flying all over the country and paying for pre-buys the price tag jumps quickly!  I have definitely dropped paint and interior to the bottome of "my list"  -  At 145kts and 9,000ft, that paint looks great!!! Auto pilot, an HSI and avionics have moved to the top of the list along with the prop AD done, good maintenance and a couple speed mods.

Aerobat95 - I didn't mean I could get a "J" with new P&I, avionics, etc for $70k - I know better...but I would rather have a "J" with bad P&I, old avionics and a midlife engine for high $70's than an "F" with those things for the same price.

I have the cash and am ready to go so I think I will start making some offers and see what happens....all they can say is "NO"!!!!

 

[rbridges]

something I've learned is that the 201 windshields and some other mods are hard/impossible to do now.  If you're wanting them, you'll need to get a plane that already has it.

[aerobat95]

Quote: rbridges

something I've learned is that the 201 windshields and some other mods are hard/impossible to do now.  If you're wanting them, you'll need to get a plane that already has it.

[DrBill]

Quote: mschmuff

 

Is it just me or is everyone asking top dollar for their aircraft?  Every time I find a M20F for under $50,000 it needs paint, interior and doesn’t have an IFR GPS.  Seriously, $45,000 for a plane that needs paint ($8,500), interior ($6,500) and a 430 ($9,000 used) I’m looking at over $70,000 – why not just buy a “J”?!?!  Does anyone know of a M20F for sale that the owner isn’t living in a dream world?  It’s winter, the economy sucks and it’s a buyer’s market!!!  East Coast only.....not flying to Calif to look at a plane!  

[dmc]

Quote: rbridges

something I've learned is that the 201 windshields and some other mods are hard/impossible to do now.  If you're wanting them, you'll need to get a plane that already has it.

[Shadrach]

Perhaps the market is favoring these birds a but more because of the US economy's current state. Whaie prices may seem high to you, where else are you going to get 650lb+ full fuel payload, 150kts, 1000nm range on 10gph. Even if it's not well equiped and pretty, it's a lot of capability for 65K or less.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don't spend a bunch of money chasing airplanes on Prebuys with nothing to protect you in case the deal goes south. Good airplanes will be sold by sellers who agree to pay for airworthy fixes necessary per the inspection. 

 

If the seller walks they need to be on the hook for the prebuy. 

[schule]

I just bought an F formerly owned by Mr. Wilkins.  I was having a hard time deciding between the aircraft I bought and the aircraft I want in the future.  The biggest factor I settled on was a holistic look at the anticipated cost of ownership.  The actual purchase price getting me within 90% of what i need was important, but not close to the whole picture.  Paying more for the aircraft is a right decision if you do it for the right reasons.  Your mechanic will appreciate any fixer-upper you might get.

After 6 months of looking I ended up with a very well maintained aircraft that was fresh off an annual at Maxwell's.  I bought the plane sight unseen based off my research on the logs and the reputations of Don Maxwell and Jimmy Garrison.  After almost 40 flight hours last week I am a very happy, new to me, Mooney owner.

If you don't want to fly to Cali to look at planes I would most definitely recommend a trip to TX.  Also remember, the economy doesn't suck in TX, ND, and AK as we have a boat full of black gold.

Good luck with your search it can definitely be rewarding on the other-side!  Thanks Mr. Wilkins for the torch you carried for a while on 477T.

 

-Mark

[aerobat95]

Quote: dmc

What happens if you damage your windshield?

[KSMooniac]

Quote: mschmuff

Great feedback folks!!  I get that limiting myself to the East Coast is a killer but when you start flying all over the country and paying for pre-buys the price tag jumps quickly!  I have definitely dropped paint and interior to the bottome of "my list"  -  At 145kts and 9,000ft, that paint looks great!!! Auto pilot, an HSI and avionics have moved to the top of the list along with the prop AD done, good maintenance and a couple speed mods.

Aerobat95 - I didn't mean I could get a "J" with new P&I, avionics, etc for $70k - I know better...but I would rather have a "J" with bad P&I, old avionics and a midlife engine for high $70's than an "F" with those things for the same price.

I have the cash and am ready to go so I think I will start making some offers and see what happens....all they can say is "NO"!!!!

[rbridges]

Quote: aerobat95

What happens if you damage your windshield?

[Hank]

Maybe you can get a replacement windshield through the factory/MSC channel if needed. I remember hearing from people who wanted to do the conversion that niether LASAR nor SWTA had windshields in stock, and wouldn't make any without a sufficient number of orders.

[aerobat95]

My '74F with the 201 windshield mod uses the exact same windshield as a J.  My cowl deck and everything that goes along with the windshield is the exact same components that are on a J.  No that being said.....if you have a SWTA 201 type mod you might have a hard time finding a replacement.  From what I understand it is not a direct drop in 201 windshield.