Lycoming is hosing us on IO-360 Angle Valve Cylin

[garytex]

Gee whiz it is like the bad old days before PMA cylinders.  I am a big fan of new cylinders, and just looked at pricing, and I am offended at $2,100. cylinders when Lycoming sells the parallel valve for $1,100.  What an unpleasant suprise.  Seems like the only difference is that Lycoming has no competition on these, and is gouging.  

What are you guys using?  Any gossip on PMA?  Who do you like as a cylinder overhauler?  Ugh, I hate overhauled cylinders.  Like a used condom, you never know how long the damn thing has been in service.  And with a relatively low recruitment of new cylinders into the overhaul pool, I bet some of these have been through the OH process more times than an easier to replace cylinder.  Aluminum fatigues.  Ooo...Bad.  I don't know which I like less, being gouged, or overhauled cylinders.   

Gary

[Mac201]

I feel your pain. Two years ago, at overhaul, my shop found low time cylinders that I had overhauled with nickel carbide at ECI. Of course I have always wondered about the 600 hours "low time" cylinders. No way to verify.

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: garytex

Gee whiz it is like the bad old days before PMA cylinders.  I am a big fan of new cylinders, and just looked at pricing, and I am offended at $2,100. cylinders when Lycoming sells the parallel valve for $1,100.  What an unpleasant suprise.  Seems like the only difference is that Lycoming has no competition on these, and is gouging.  

What are you guys using?  Any gossip on PMA?  Who do you like as a cylinder overhauler?  Ugh, I hate overhauled cylinders.  Like a used condom, you never know how long the damn thing has been in service.  And with a relatively low recruitment of new cylinders into the overhaul pool, I bet some of these have been through the OH process more times than an easier to replace cylinder.  Aluminum fatigues.  Ooo...Bad.  I don't know which I like less, being gouged, or overhauled cylinders.   

Gary

[KSMooniac]

Competition is a good thing, and unfortunately there is none for us with these jugs.  Mine are first-runs on a factory overhaul, and I plan to have them overhauled by my local shop when the time comes.  That is at least a $4000 savings, and maybe closer to $5000.  If managed well, they should be good for 2-3 runs at a minimum, but I wouldn't take my chances with any unknown jugs from the parts bin.

[jetdriven]

Scott, I think we will do the same.  Our cylinders are 1500 hours since new, I think as long as we get our 4 cylinders back from the overhaul shop, I could live with that.  I certainly wouldnt exchange them.  Throw out the cam and lifters, and overhaul the rest.

[Ned Gravel]

When I did the major on my engine in 2009, two of my cylinders had less than 250 hours on them.  The others had over 1700 hours.  So I bought two new and overhauled the other two.  By the time I got to overhaul, the price of the cylinders was no longer a shock to me.

But at twice the price of the flat deck ones?

[Shadrach]

As others have said, have your own cylinders OH'd. I have new Lycoming cylinders as of 2000 and will have them OH'd locally when the time comes.

[rbridges]

let me ask a dumb question.  When something has a TOH, that can be with new or overhauled cylinders, correct?

[PTK]

Quote: garytex

Like a used condom, you never know how long the damn thing has been in service.  

Gary

[Shadrach]

Quote: rbridges

let me ask a dumb question.  When something has a TOH, that can be with new or overhauled cylinders, correct?

[rbridges]

Quote: Shadrach

Yes.

[garytex]

Yours are the parallel valve cylinders, with lots of new options for $1100.  They may be Millenium, which are good cylinders.  Mine are exchange cyls. during a cheapie OH about 10 years ago and they have given trouble per the logs, with one off right now.  I have 12 hrs in the plane and it is down for cyl work.   I hate old worn-out over-used welded, fatigued-head unknown history jugs  Played that game back when there were no aftermarket jugs.  It sucked then, and I suspct it will suck again.  The difference is that I could land the 170 just about anywhere.  The Mooney, not so much. 

Quote: rbridges

Yes.

[rbridges]

oh, I just noticed you were talking about the IO engines.

[garytex]

Just talked to ECI.  They think angle valve jugs actually are harder to pour and machine, so there is some justification for the price diference.  They sell a new angle valve cylinder for experimental use only.  Big X through the part number.  There is talk about FAA aproval, which is not easy or cheap, same talk for the last 15 years according to the fellow I spoke to.  They are still doing the IFR process which includes de-mating and pressure anealing the heads on their overhauls, which will fight embrittlement from age and previous welding done with either theirs or other metal composition welding rod. Thats just what I want, the inside of a jug that looks like Joan Rivers face.  The IFR process costs about the same as a new parralel valve jug, so no-one does it on parallel valve, they just buy a new parralel valve jug.

[N601RX]

I think ECI can also mate a new barrel to the cylinder assembly.  The reason these cost more is supply and demand.  We need them and Lycoming is the only one that has them.

I wander what an IO 390 cylinder would cost? 

[KSMooniac]

Somewhere a while ago I saw the cost of the -390 cylinder and IIRC it was even more.... perhaps $2500.  Worse yet, the lifters are ~$500 each (8 req'd) and must be replaced at overhaul and/or prop strike.

[jetdriven]

The  FAA doesn't define "top overhaul". You could pul all 4 jugs, measure them and if they are in service limits,put them all back on and call it a fresh top overhaul.  

Same with instruments. They can look at it, not replace one part, and call it overhauled for 600$.   

Quote: rbridges

let me ask a dumb question.  When something has a TOH, that can be with new or overhauled cylinders, correct?

[jetdriven]

Jim, you can pull one cylinder and inspect all cam lobes.  We did. You willknow when one fails it loads the filter with metal. 

Regarding oil consumption, a smart IA told me to try a quart of "MMO" and fly it at 3,000 feet and 75% power for an hour.  Then change the oil and ad a quart of "MMO" just before the first flight then a half quart for every 3 you add.  Fly it at 65%, give it a workout.  Ours trashed the filter with carbon but after that it improved to a quart every 6-8 hours and no more carbon.  I think the rings were sticking.  

Quote: JimR

I'm with Scott and Byron on this. My engine is an approximately 1650 hour factory reman, obviously with first run cylinders, none of which have ever been removed or given any trouble.  Oil consumption is higher than I'd like at about a quart every four hours, but it is stable, compressions are very good, and the engine makes good power. I am considering pulling them when I reach TBO to inspect the cam shaft lobes.  If they are worn or corroded it will be major overhaul time. If they are not, I might just do a top overhaul, overhaul the mags, and replace the harness and keep on flying. Either way, I'm planning to reuse my cylinders.  

Jim

[fantom]

May be more than hypothetical. A good friend recently did the same MMO trick in his Comanche 260 with similar results.

[garytex]

ECI price for a new angle valve Titan cylinder FOR EXPERIMENTAL USE ONLY  $1,900.00