Avionics/DME Options '67 F

[canamex]

Hello All,

I'm looking to expand the IFR capabilities of my Mooney and could use the collective brainpower of MooneySpace to logic-check me. I've also reviewed this thread, in which @par seems to have been grappling with the same questions.

I currently have a more or less VFR panel, save for a couple of integrated Narco Head Units, one of which has glideslope. There is no DME. I'm IFR rated and I've flown a couple of IFR approaches which don't require DME but they're few and far between and I would like to be able to access more DME approaches, legally. I do have an iPad with the fancy ForeFlight subscription so I have all the situational awareness goodies but I also enjoy turning it off sometimes and flying the needle.

Eventually I'd like to put in an IFD440 and most likely the Dynon system once the autopilot system is approved (I spoke with the guys at Oshkosh this year and they said it would be next year...and yes I've also read all the threads on here about missed deadlines but this isn't urgent for me so I'm happy to wait). For now however I'd like to install that which is going to ultimately stay in the airplane which is:

• Garmin SL30 Nav/Comm: One of my old comms just quit and this item seems to pack a huge punch with nav and comm as well as DME display
• A nav head compatible with both the SL30 as well as the IFD440 (to be installed in the future)

And for now that would be it. If I have any extra money I might try to find a used engine monitoring system so if anyone has any recommendations, please let me know what would be the best bang for the buck.

Video-still capture photo below (apologies for the poor quality).

Thanks in advance!

 

 

[Janat83]

Regarding Dynon, I asked them for my 1968 M20C and the sales manager confirmed to me that they don't have any plans to develop an autopilot compatible with my airplane not even in near future, I don't know if it's the same case to longer body G&Fs

[Mooney Dog]

Personally I would look at what you want to do with the plane/panel as a whole. Do you want to keep two obs gauges or upgrade to an HSI or glass at all? 

 

For my personal plane. Dual G5s, a 375 gps and a 255 nav/com was perfect and set right up for an AP upgrade. Though im a bit of a garmin fanboy so slightly biased. I have not had the chance to play with a 440 or dynon systems, but lots of people seem to like them. 

 

As far as DME goes. I dont know anyone who still has a proper DME, other than europe, as a requirement. Most GA in the US uses GPS in lieu of DME, you just have to be aware of slant error vs straight line. I believe AC 90-108 covers this as well.  

[canamex]

@Janat83 yes it seems the short body Mooneys are missing out on the AP and it'll only be the F, G, J, and K models which they're pushing forward with although who knows...

@Mooney Dog my thoughts exactly. The idea behind getting the SL30 is that I'll need a backup radio regardless and in the future although I'll most likely go with glass in some form I would still want a backup CDI. I'm only leaning toward the IFD440 because after flying around in New Mexico I found that buttons are really nice to have. Garmin seems to be moving in the opposite direction. Sounds like you've got a nice panel there!

[Mooney Dog]

Just now, canamex said:

I found that buttons are really nice to have.

After years of using dual 430W systems, i thought i would hate touchscreen. Ive somehow come to love it a ton. Yeah turbulence gives me a bit of trouble sometimes, but ive gotten so fast at using the touch systems with a 750/650 that i wouldnt dream of going back now. Though, i would like having a few more dedicated buttons. with flightstream and connext moving my flight plans from ipad to plane has gotten supper easy too. 

 

[kortopates]

Agreed, once you know how to hold the side rail of the box touch screen is not difficult in turbulence.
And with the voice commands on the 750, you don't need to take your hand off the yoke to do most things!


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[Utah20Gflyer]

I am in a similar situation as you.  Had dual navcoms including one with a glideslope but no DME.  Unfortunately where I am all VOR and localizer approaches require DME.   So I needed to do an upgrade for IFR training.

  I did have a KLN 89b IFR gps but it was installed VFR, has a fading internal battery and it looked like a pain to upgrade the database.  I considered getting it squared away to use it as the DME/GPS but it would have been at least several thousand dollars and I didn't like the idea if putting that much money into an old gps when I knew I wanted a Waas gps anyway. 

What I decided on was a Garmin 355 Gps/com and a GI 275 HSI.  I'm getting rid of the 89b, a King KX175 nav com, and a CDI.  The nice thing about this set up is you can send both the GPS and Nav data to the 275 so it nicely consolidates the panel.  I can do all of the approaches and still have two coms.  It's going to cost about 17k, so not a super cheap solution but long term it moves me in the direction I want to go.   Should come out of the shop next week. I'm pretty excited!

Other options.  I got quoted about 11k for a 355 and a 106b or the cheapest option would be a straight 175 gps with 106b for around 8k. 

[Mooney Dog]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

And with the voice commands on the 750

I had no idea this was a feature and now i must test it. 

[kortopates]

I had no idea this was a feature and now i must test it. 

You do need the yoke button to use it - like a second PTT. I have it on both yokes, since we're two pilots.


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[Ragsf15e]

Id do everything possible to put in an ifr gps now.  A Garmin 355 or the avidyne is fine.  You’ll get the dme, and so much more.  Even if everything else is steam gages, legally going direct and flying gps approaches is a whole new world.  Find a friend getting rid of a 430w.  Buy it cheaply.  Have it installed.  Swap with an avidyne when you’re ready - it’s a slide in replacement.  Problem is used 430s are still pricey because they’re still very useful.

[tmo]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:15 AM, Ragsf15e said:

Id do everything possible to put in an ifr gps now.  A Garmin 355 or the avidyne is fine.  You’ll get the dme, and so much more.

Nitpicking, but no GPS gives you DME, just "DME substitution" based on GNSS (GPS) data. Which is fine, as long as one understands that a GNSS signal outage will affect the "DME" reading. With a true DME, it would still work, even if the GNSS signal was not available.

[midlifeflyer]

16 minutes ago, tmo said:

Nitpicking, but no GPS gives you DME, just "DME substitution" based on GNSS (GPS) data. Which is fine, as long as one understands that a GNSS signal outage will affect the "DME" reading. With a true DME, it would still work, even if the GNSS signal was not available.

True but becoming more irrelevant in the US on a daily basis.  Not something I would consider in a avionics upgrade unless I already had DME and the room to keep it without giving up something else. 

[Yetti]

If you are considering an engine monitor.  Then consider starting with the Dynon EMS with the 9" screen.    Then just get a 430W and put in there.

[kortopates]

5 hours ago, tmo said:

Nitpicking, but no GPS gives you DME, just "DME substitution" based on GNSS (GPS) data. Which is fine, as long as one understands that a GNSS signal outage will affect the "DME" reading. With a true DME, it would still work, even if the GNSS signal was not available.

I assume in Europe its still the case that GPS is NOT a legal substitution for DME? Have you heard anythung on when that might change? 

As Mark said, its has little relevance flying in the US, but I have missed it flying south where GPS outages from jamming are real.

[tmo]

Correct, we still cannot legally do substitution the way you can. There is a NPA (Notice of Proposed Ammendment) to allow some substitution, but I don't believe it has been implemented yet. The proposed text is below.

AMC1 NCO.IDE.A.195(a) Navigation equipment
RNAV SUBSTITUTION
An  RNAV  system  may  be  used  to  substitute  for  conventional  navigation  aids  and  radio  equipment,  without monitoring of the raw data from conventional navigation aids, under the following conditions:
SCOPE OF RNAV SUBSTITUTION
 (a)RNAV substitution may be used in all the phases of flight except:
   (1) to provide lateral guidance in the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure; and
   (2) to  substitute  for  DME,  if  a  DME  transceiver  is  either  not  installed on  the  aircraft  or  found  to  be unserviceable before flight.  

Which kind of makes it useless for when needed, I'd think.

This is from https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Draft%20AMC%20%26%20GM%20%28OPS%20and%20FCL%29%20Amendment%201.pdf

[kortopates]

7 minutes ago, tmo said:

Correct, we still cannot legally do substitution the way you can. There is a NPA (Notice of Proposed Ammendment) to allow some substitution, but I don't believe it has been implemented yet. The proposed text is below.

AMC1 NCO.IDE.A.195(a) Navigation equipment
RNAV SUBSTITUTION
An  RNAV  system  may  be  used  to  substitute  for  conventional  navigation  aids  and  radio  equipment,  without monitoring of the raw data from conventional navigation aids, under the following conditions:
SCOPE OF RNAV SUBSTITUTION
 (a)RNAV substitution may be used in all the phases of flight except:
   (1) to provide lateral guidance in the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure; and
   (2) to  substitute  for  DME,  if  a  DME  transceiver  is  either  not  installed on  the  aircraft  or  found  to  be unserviceable before flight.  

Which kind of makes it useless for when needed, I'd think.

This is from https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Draft%20AMC%20%26%20GM%20%28OPS%20and%20FCL%29%20Amendment%201.pdf

Wow, we can do both of those exceptions in the US incuding lateral guidance on the final approach course for VOR and NDB approaches provided we monitor the raw signal which is limiting but everyone at least needs VOR anyway. Not allowing for DME substutution just makes no sense.

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, tmo said:

Nitpicking, but no GPS gives you DME, just "DME substitution" based on GNSS (GPS) data. Which is fine, as long as one understands that a GNSS signal outage will affect the "DME" reading. With a true DME, it would still work, even if the GNSS signal was not available.

Fair enough, but would you buy a “new” dme and put it in your new glass panel in the US?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[tmo]

In the US I would not install a new DME.

Over here I most likely will, when the time to get rid of the KNS80 comes.

If anyone has a surplus DME free to a good home, let me know...