Calling All Experts! First Time Mooney Buyer Needs Help!

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

14 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

Real OLD helicopters have skids   

These seem pretty new. 

https://robinsonheli.com/

https://rotorxaircraft.com/specifications

https://www.safarihelicopter.com/buy-a-safari/the-safari-kit-complete-2/

 

[BobCW]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:14 PM, Will.iam said:

so 30 to 40 gallons is the norm

@Will.iam did you make your own fuel sticks?

On 2/17/2021 at 2:51 PM, Nokomis449 said:

A local company, Ace Aeronautics (aceaero.com) modifies Blackhawks and other rotary/fixed wing aircraft

I looked them up. You are right, they are beautiful!

On 2/17/2021 at 4:34 PM, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

real helicopters have skids

@AH-1 Cobra Pilot am I'm sad they retire the TH-67 just a few days ago. I loved doing Run-on Skid Landings. I will say, wheels and struts are much better for slopes and uneven terrain. Skids are cool though, no doubt...

[ZuluZulu]

On 2/16/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shiny moose said:

My .02

Do not be in a hurry

Buy the model that fits your mission. 

Nothing wrong with a 60's Mooney or any other make, its about how its been maintained, locations its lived. 

Buy the best one you can afford, with some of your desired avionics

Not only an escrow but have the title search for history.

Find a very quaified trustworthy Mechanic for the PPI. Not the same one thats been maintaining that particular aircraft 

Have a great PPI done, How about just get an annual done, with(if you can) all airworthy items paid for by seller( airworthy can be subjective, so have discussions on this issue before any PPI is started). 

a list of non airworthy items for your review and approval for purchase, so you can take care of these known issues throughout the next year using your local mechanic. 

Talk with your insurance company, they could require more dual and solo hours than you think. This will add to your initial budget as you will want this done rather quickly.  

Find a real mooney instructor. 

You might spend thousands of dollars upfront, but save yourself 10s of thousands by not buying someone elses problems 

 

This is great advice but I would say: be in somewhat of a hurry.  Not in a hurry to buy a plane, any plane, but to be prepared to move on the right plane once you've found it.  I bought my J last July and the market has only exploded since then.  Good planes are going really, really fast right now.  Do your homework and all your prep ahead of time so that when you learn how to recognize a good one, and you do, you'll be ready to pull the trigger on a deposit and pre-buy before it goes under contract to someone else.  You've already done a lot to clearly define what you want and what you're looking for, so you're close.

But I agree on not rushing this.  Just learn to recognize a good plane and be ready to schedule a pre-buy with financing preapproval in place when you find one.

Also AOPA Finance isn't the only option.  I had a really great experience with Dorr and would not hesitate to use them again if I'm ever back in the market.

[201Steve]

20 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Also AOPA Finance isn't the only option.

I will have a life long resentment against AOPA finance. The banker they put me with said point blank “you can’t afford an airplane.” After lecturing him with a sharp tongue, I hung up on him, went thru EAA’s preferred vendors, had the money right away, and never missed a beat. I’ve also barred any banks that denied me capital loans in starting my business the opportunity of ever getting any of my future business. One of my petty grudges I choose to keep up. =) end rant

[Jerry 5TJ]

21 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

but to be prepared to move on the right plane once you've found it.

Yes, the good ones are in demand.   

[RobertGary1]

 

On 2/16/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shiny moose said:

My .02

Do not be in a hurry

Buy the model that fits your mission. 

Nothing wrong with a 60's Mooney or any other make, its about how its been maintained, locations its lived. 

Buy the best one you can afford, with some of your desired avionics

Not only an escrow but have the title search for history.

Find a very quaified trustworthy Mechanic for the PPI. Not the same one thats been maintaining that particular aircraft 

Have a great PPI done, How about just get an annual done, with(if you can) all airworthy items paid for by seller( airworthy can be subjective, so have discussions on this issue before any PPI is started). 

a list of non airworthy items for your review and approval for purchase, so you can take care of these known issues throughout the next year using your local mechanic. 

Talk with your insurance company, they could require more dual and solo hours than you think. This will add to your initial budget as you will want this done rather quickly.  

Find a real mooney instructor. 

You might spend thousands of dollars upfront, but save yourself 10s of thousands by not buying someone elses problems 

 

And its very normal for the PPI to find a laundry list of issues, even if the last annual was done by the top Mooney mechanic in the country. Decades ago I used to alternate between two Mooney service centers and they always found things the other didn't. You're not buying a brand new BMW, if there are no issues then you didn't get a PPI. EVERY real PPI will come up with issues.

-Robert

[Nokomis449]

4 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I will have a life long resentment against AOPA finance. The banker they put me with said point blank “you can’t afford an airplane.” After lecturing him with a sharp tongue, I hung up on him, went thru EAA’s preferred vendors, had the money right away, and never missed a beat. I’ve also barred any banks that denied me capital loans in starting my business the opportunity of ever getting any of my future business. One of my petty grudges I choose to keep up. =) end rant

The first time I contacted AOPA Finance, they turned me down because I wasn't borrowing enough money.  The second time, their interest rate was higher than what I could get on an unsecured loan.  So like AOPA's insurance arm, their loan arm is useless to me.  Thankfully, several of us local pilots now have a very friendly local bank that between us all has financed probably 10 airplanes over the last several years.

[jetdriven]

We had a similar issue. Aopa  was using Bank of America for the money, and it cost like 16 or 17% which is higher than the Bank of America credit card we had. We ended up using a local credit union and get the money for about 6% which in 2010 was pretty good money. But none of the others came close to that, not Bank  of pryor, not dorr  aviation, not Airfleet capital or any of the others

[Shiny moose]

12 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

 

And its very normal for the PPI to find a laundry list of issues, even if the last annual was done by the top Mooney mechanic in the country. Decades ago I used to alternate between two Mooney service centers and they always found things the other didn't. You're not buying a brand new BMW, if there are no issues then you didn't get a PPI. EVERY real PPI will come up with issues.

-Robert

I agree that any mechanic will find many items that have been missed by prior mechanics, or maybe not recorded, or not determined to be an issue at the previous inspection. A list of items during a PPI should be expected, and can be as detailed as the buyer would like. 

[KLRDMD]

49 minutes ago, Shiny moose said:

I agree that any mechanic will find many items that have been missed by prior mechanics, or maybe not recorded, or not determined to be an issue at the previous inspection. A list of items during a PPI should be expected, and can be as detailed as the buyer would like. 

Knock yourself out having your mechanic list six pages of discrepancies. As a seller my only responsibility is to deliver an airworthy airplane. I'll have the one or two issues identified as airworthiness addressed but the other 43 things are on the buyer. Too many buyers, especially first time buyers expect the seller to fix everything found on a pre-buy inspection. Sorry, this is a 50 (or 30 or 20) year old airplane. If you want factory new, you need to buy factory new.

[jetdriven]

It’s not really a faircomparison between factory new and  and 5-6 pages of discrepancies.  I mean airplanes are old and the price should reflect condition. But if it’s got six pages of discrepancies it’s not a top of the market creampuff open checkbook airplane. It’s a run down airplane that needs a lot of work.We recently did a pre-by inspection on a 252 that the guy said was maintain top-notch at this place in Hagerstown. Well let me tell you Hagerstown does excellent sheet-metal work but the rest of the airplane needed quite a bit of attention. Things like there was no A.D. list in the aircraft records. The compressions were all marginal. There’s plenty of things chafing and  rubbing, All of the access panel screws were all cammed out and torn up. All of the valve cover gaskets were leaking, the breather hose was clear vinyl and 34 years old. Had the seller said this is an open checkbook perfect airplane no expense spared I would’ve made him try to buy all of that stuff, but it was under flown, the seller is selling it because he was moving, wasn’t using it anymore, and believe it or not the price of the discrepancies was baked in very fairly, so he bought a cylinder for 2500 bucks and everybody was happy.  

[KLRDMD]

24 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It’s not really a faircomparison between factory new and  and 5-6 pages of discrepancies.  I mean airplanes are old and the price should reflect condition. But if it’s got six pages of discrepancies it’s not a top of the market creampuff open checkbook airplane. It’s a run down airplane that needs a lot of work.

Not necessarily true. I've seen things like left main tire tread at 75%, brakes worn to 50% of allowable, paint chip on cowl near prop, vacuum pump (and/or magnetos) with 350 hours TIS, paint on main gear needs touch up . . .

None of those are airworthy, none should be addressed by the seller and all of that plus much more in the same vein has been listed on pre-buy squawk sheets I've seen. That is most certainly not a run down airplane that needs a lot of work.

Unfortunately I've seen buyers walk away after getting results like this. That is a disservice to everyone involved.

[Will.iam]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:05 PM, BobCW said:

@Will.iam did you make your own fuel sticks?

I looked them up. You are right, they are beautiful!

@AH-1 Cobra Pilot am I'm sad they retire the TH-67 just a few days ago. I loved doing Run-on Skid Landings. I will say, wheels and struts are much better for slopes and uneven terrain. Skids are cool though, no doubt...

I was going to make my own fuel sticks and flew left tank to empty then landed and preceded to add five gallons and mark the stick. I also noted on the wing tank gauge where it was indicating. I repeated this for 10, 15, and 20. I was a little disappointed that my wing tank was indicating 1 to 2 gallons low, but when i towed the plane back into my hanger i realized the gas pump pad was not level as my hanger floor as it was read correctly in the hanger. The next day i repeated the test on the right wing and sure enough the wing gauge was reading 1 to 2 gallons higher than the tank. I have found between the fuel totalizer and wing tank gauges i have a higher resolution than using a fuel stick.