Landing Issues with Rocket

[rocketman]

Weill, I just got my new rocket this week and fast is not the word, nor is economy. But I love it.

I have a question for anyone who can help me. Before this plane I have owned (and still do) a 1982 201 and have 1800 or so hours on it. I would consider myself pretty efficient on landing in a Mooney. However, when landing the rocket, once the front tire touches the ground the plane tends to go off in one direction. Gentle correction on the rudders seems to overcorrect in the opposite direction. and this continues until the plane has slowed down. The front wheel looks fine, all tires are new and with correct air pressure. No abnormal tire wear problems are seen. My landing speeds are a knot or so above my J model so my ability to react to Rocket landing speeds is not a factor.The tire wear is fine and the plane otherwise flies well. I do use a slight pitch up attitude on landing to avoid excess weight on the nose gear. What am I doing wrong or are there some things on the plane I need to check  to correct this "horizontal porposing". Has anyone else experienced this and what do you do about it.

Or maybe I just need to get used to landing with this giant of an engine in front of an equally sized 201 body frame.

[sleepingsquirrel]

http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM

This might be helpful.

[GeorgePerry]

Jack the plane up in the air and check the steering horn, truss, and associated bushings for play.  If you can move the wheel side to side with your hands, then it's time to replace stuff.  See the links below for previous discussions and links.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=1473

The issues will be compounded with a Rocket or Missile b/c more wieght rests on the nose than a J or K.

http://www.swta.net/mooneyproductinfo/mooneymodspricelist.html

[jax88]

Ditto GeorgePerry's reply.  I was having a heck of a time with a nose vibration when landing my '75F.  It was discovered at annual that there was a very small part missing from just above the biscuits.  I was told that it may be that the aircraft left the factory without the part, as the mechanic had seen the problem before.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: rocketman

Weill, I just got my new rocket this week and fast is not the word, nor is economy. But I love it.

I have a question for anyone who can help me. Before this plane I have owned (and still do) a 1982 201 and have 1800 or so hours on it. I would consider myself pretty efficient on landing in a Mooney. However, when landing the rocket, once the front tire touches the ground the plane tends to go off in one direction. Gentle correction on the rudders seems to overcorrect in the opposite direction. and this continues until the plane has slowed down. The front wheel looks fine, all tires are new and with correct air pressure. No abnormal tire wear problems are seen. My landing speeds are a knot or so above my J model so my ability to react to Rocket landing speeds is not a factor.The tire wear is fine and the plane otherwise flies well. I do use a slight pitch up attitude on landing to avoid excess weight on the nose gear. What am I doing wrong or are there some things on the plane I need to check  to correct this "horizontal porposing". Has anyone else experienced this and what do you do about it.

Or maybe I just need to get used to landing with this giant of an engine in front of an equally sized 201 body frame.

[Piloto]

Due to the engine added weight the tail ballast needs to be increased. If you are running out of up trim during flare you definetly need more ballast. Another easy option is to raise the flaps on the flare when close to the ground (within 5ft). This will raise the nose slightly without trimming up assuring a mains contact first. By reducing the wing lift it puts more weight on the mains thus reducing weight on the nose during touch down.

 

José

[FlyDave]

Quote: Piloto

Due to the engine added weight the tail ballast needs to be increased. If you are running out of up trim during flare you definetly need more ballast. Another easy option is to raise the flaps on the flare when close to the ground (within 5ft). This will raise the nose slightly without trimming up assuring a mains contact first. By reducing the wing lift it puts more weight on the mains thus reducing weight on the nose during touch down.

 

José

[David Mazer]

Ron,

Like Aviatoreb, I have no such issues.  Please have it looked at soon as this is not typical and I believe there is a problem that needs to be addressed mechanically rather than a change in your procedures.  I'm over the fence at 72-75 kts solo or 75-80 kts with passengers or significant crosswinds or gusts.  Below 72 kts my nose tends to fall too fast and land too hard for me.  Isn't worth the potential prop strike.

[Shadrach]

Damn, what the stall speed for a rocket at gross?  Do you guys even get a stall horn in the flare?

[David Mazer]

Stall solo is 59 kts dirty.  Stall horn blares in flare.  With the loss of elevator authority and that big engine out front, if you don't put the nose down it falls down on its own very hard.  The Bravo is 10 in longer than the Rocket and I have been told, but can't confirm, the reason was to increase the leverage of the elevator for just this situation.  I have tried to come in slower and hold the nose up to shorten the landing run and damn near struck the prop when the nose fell like a ton of bricks.  Scared me half to death.  I won't do that again unless it is for an emergency landing and I'm not concerned about the damage to the plane.  I plane on 2000 ft as a goal for the landing run and often go to 2200 even in good conditions (day, light winds, no approach obstructions, airport known to me).

[David Mazer]

Stall solo is 59 kts dirty.  Stall horn blares in flare.  With the loss of elevator authority and that big engine out front, if you don't put the nose down it falls down on its own very hard.  The Bravo is 10 in longer than the Rocket and I have been told, but can't confirm, the reason was to increase the leverage of the elevator for just this situation.  I have tried to come in slower and hold the nose up to shorten the landing run and damn near struck the prop when the nose fell like a ton of bricks.  Scared me half to death.  I won't do that again unless it is for an emergency landing and I'm not concerned about the damage to the plane.  I plane on 2000 ft as a goal for the landing run and often go to 2200 even in good conditions (day, light winds, no approach obstructions, airport known to me).

[jetdriven]

It may be a caster issue as detailed in Don Maxwell's article.  Our 201 swerves all over the place above 50 knots, too BTW.

[M016576]

Sounds like something might be loose or failing in your nose gear.  The extra weight from the mod shouldn't lead to PIO on touchdown.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Mazerbase

Stall solo is 59 kts dirty.  Stall horn blares in flare.  With the loss of elevator authority and that big engine out front, if you don't put the nose down it falls down on its own very hard.  The Bravo is 10 in longer than the Rocket and I have been told, but can't confirm, the reason was to increase the leverage of the elevator for just this situation.  I have tried to come in slower and hold the nose up to shorten the landing run and damn near struck the prop when the nose fell like a ton of bricks.  Scared me half to death.  I won't do that again unless it is for an emergency landing and I'm not concerned about the damage to the plane.  I plane on 2000 ft as a goal for the landing run and often go to 2200 even in good conditions (day, light winds, no approach obstructions, airport known to me).

[rtdl]

Hi there, let's introduce myself as a new member.

I'm a proud new Rocket co-owner in France. The delivery was on july 10th and more than 100h fly time (50h each...) since this moment. I was a zero time Mooney pilot, not very experienced with only 200h total time and 40 hours on complex. I heard a lot of bad comments on Mooneys landing so I was a little afraid of my "crazy" choice (not only a Mooney, but a Rocket!!!). So I asked for an instructor familiar with Mooney  to teach me the basic skills for this airplane. Unfortunately, he was leaving for long vacation, so I've learned with my co-owner which had some hours on a M20F. We have read all available publications about Mooney Turbos and especially Rockets, and learn a lot before delivery, and let's fly... 

Now, my opinion about Mooneys is as follow : They are fantastic birds, complex but easy to fly and easy to land. Since the first landing, I never had any problem. I just check the speed on approach, trim it up when the speed decrease and it works at anytime. I can confirm the nose is heavy, but even with 2 heavy guys on the front seats, the trim is not full up.

Sorry Rocketman, I can't send you the solution, only say that my Rochet lands with no horizontal deviation. May be some issue around the front gear?

Happy to join the Mooniacs community.

Romain

[rocketman]

Thanks for everyones help. On the nose gear issues that Don Maxwell article referenced, it did not apply to the K models but its worth checking it out anyways. I'm sure I will be replacing lots of expensive parts and thats OK. I guess I would like to be sure that it CAN be fixed before I go overboard and start updating the panel to glass.  Its never had a gear up landing that I'm aware of anyways and the plane has obviously been cared for. The previous owner just recently put in a new Victor Black Edition II engine.

[David Mazer]

Quote: aviatoreb

Two pilot's on board stall btw is just south of 55kts (I did my BFR a few weeks ago - come to think of it I wish I recorded the number, but I can say it was 54 or 55 or better).

[jetdriven]

I think it also costs your 3 knots in cruise, which is where the airplane spends 80% of its time at.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Mazerbase

Stall solo is 59 kts dirty.  Stall horn blares in flare.  With the loss of elevator authority and that big engine out front, if you don't put the nose down it falls down on its own very hard.  The Bravo is 10 in longer than the Rocket and I have been told, but can't confirm, the reason was to increase the leverage of the elevator for just this situation.  I have tried to come in slower and hold the nose up to shorten the landing run and damn near struck the prop when the nose fell like a ton of bricks.  Scared me half to death.  I won't do that again unless it is for an emergency landing and I'm not concerned about the damage to the plane.  I plane on 2000 ft as a goal for the landing run and often go to 2200 even in good conditions (day, light winds, no approach obstructions, airport known to me).

Edited April 21, 2020 by Shadrach

[David Mazer]

From my airspeed indicator.  Then again, it wasn't at the end of a long flight but rather from the beginning of a local practice flight and I hold 109 gal (104 usable).  I would expect that Aviatoreb's numbers were from local flight as well but it may have been an hour into a BFR.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

I think it also costs your 3 knots in cruise, which is where the airplane spends 80% of its time at.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Mazerbase

From my airspeed indicator.  Then again, it wasn't at the end of a long flight but rather from the beginning of a local practice flight and I hold 109 gal (104 usable).  I would expect that Aviatoreb's numbers were from local flight as well but it may have been an hour into a BFR.

[sapientia]

I don't have anything to contribute but wanted to express my appreciation of the conversation.  If all goes well I am looking at possibly buying a rocket next summer.  Any information I can glean is much appreciated, especially considering my home airport is in the mountains and has a short runway.

[RJBrown]

I flew a Rocket for 800 hours and landing was never an issue. The plane never swerved or darted on landing . It was rock solid and straight. The issue is worn/misaligned parts.

Because of the additional weight out front I made sure never to allow the nose gear to touch until I ran out of speed. It became a personal challenge to keep the nose wheel up as long as I could. It would never drop hard. I found the additional weight added stability to the landings. I find my current MSE harder to land smoothly.

[jetdriven]

Have it pointed in the direction you want to go before going full throttle.

Quote: sapientia

I don't have anything to contribute but wanted to express my appreciation of the conversation.  If all goes well I am looking at possibly buying a rocket next summer.  Any information I can glean is much appreciated, especially considering my home airport is in the mountains and has a short runway.