Davidv Posted November 28, 2020 Report Share Posted November 28, 2020 I'm hoping someone who put in a new G3X EIS system could tell me if they also experienced a change in their fuel pressure after install. I realize that a lot of models don't have the fuel pressure gauge but it's required on the M. The pressure transducer location changed from the bottom right side of the engine to a new separate fuel tube that is routed near the firewall with a sensor. I as previously seeing 35-40 psi on my old analog gauge and now I'm seeing the low 20's. Wondering if this is a calibration issue since I doubt something changed between bringing it in the shop and picking it up. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 28, 2020 Report Share Posted November 28, 2020 Something doesn’t sound right... Primary fuel pressure gauge....? Probably needs to use the same primary fuel pressure location... or expect to see different ranges of fuel pressure needing to be defined... including the green arcs and redlines... The Bravo has a vented fuel pressure sensor that is a challenge to install when they don’t know the tiny hole is a vent... This sounds like the installer wasn’t familiar with how the owner intends to fly his plane..? Why would they choose a different sensor, and put it in a different location..? In the end, it doesn’t sound like they handled the situation like it is primary flight instrumentation...(?) Great question! Ask the installer if it is a primary instrumentation compatible installation? PP thoughts only, not an instrument guru... all stuff I read around here... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted November 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2020 8 hours ago, carusoam said: Something doesn’t sound right... Primary fuel pressure gauge....? Probably needs to use the same primary fuel pressure location... or expect to see different ranges of fuel pressure needing to be defined... including the green arcs and redlines... The Bravo has a vented fuel pressure sensor that is a challenge to install when they don’t know the tiny hole is a vent... This sounds like the installer wasn’t familiar with how the owner intends to fly his plane..? Why would they choose a different sensor, and put it in a different location..? In the end, it doesn’t sound like they handled the situation like it is primary flight instrumentation...(?) Great question! Ask the installer if it is a primary instrumentation compatible installation? PP thoughts only, not an instrument guru... all stuff I read around here... Best regards, -a- Thanks Anthony. Apparently the Garmin STC doesn't include using the old transducer and must use the Garmin supplied unit. Since the Garmin one works differently it cant' be put in the same location as the old transducer. The old one was at the bottom right side of the engine next to the injector unit. The new transducer was placed near the firewall with a fuel hose routed all the way from the bottom of the engine. I'm not willing to blame the installer yet if this is normal when putting in a Garmin EIS... Picture below of new pressure transducer location. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 29, 2020 Report Share Posted November 29, 2020 +1 for following the instructions that match the new hardware... Let’s see if our new Garmin guy @KLudwick can give us a hand solving the mystery..? (G3X Fuel Pressure sensor and location for a Bravo...) Another resource for tech details and panel instrumentation is Greg @Baker Avionics K may be new, and might not know everyone yet, but he may be an excellent resource for finding the right answer or the person with the right answer... PP thoughts only, not a Garmin expert... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted November 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2020 Just now, carusoam said: +1 for following the instructions that match the new hardware... Let’s see if our new Garmin guy @KLudwick can give us a hand solving the mystery..? (G3X Fuel Pressure sensor and location for a Bravo...) Another resource for tech details and panel instrumentation is Greg @Baker Avionics K may be new, and might not know everyone, but he may be an excellent resource for finding the right answer or the person with the right answer... PP thoughts only, not a Garmin expert... Best regards, -a- Thanks Anthony for calling in the reinforcements! For their info I'll just add that it's a 1992 TLS with a TIO540. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLudwick Posted November 29, 2020 Report Share Posted November 29, 2020 15 hours ago, Davidv said: Thanks Anthony for calling in the reinforcements! For their info I'll just add that it's a 1992 TLS with a TIO540. Thanks for the tag, Anthony. Let me dig around internally at G and see what I can find out! @Davidv - please check your messages on here for my email address. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 As an update, I may have found the root cause of the issue. I went into the configuration mode of the EIS in the G3X and a 75 psi Kalico was selected. I checked the actual pressure transducer and it's a Garmin 150 psi. It's odd that there are no Garmin fuel pressure transducers to choose from in the EIS setup mode. I'm thinking that if it's a 150 psi sensor and the software thinks its 75 I would be indicating about half of the real pressure. I'm going to call my installer in the morning. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 Starting to look clearer all of a sudden. Great find! Good to inform @KLudwick’s of that latest development/discovery... (see David’s note above regarding menu selection of sensor) Getting closer, but not done yet... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 minute ago, carusoam said: Starting to look clearer all of a sudden. Great find! Good to inform @KLudwick’s of that latest development/discovery... (see David’s note above regarding menu selection of sensor) Getting closer, but not done yet... Best regards, -a- Thanks Anthony, yes, I'm not saying it's the answer yet but also very weird there wouldn't be any Garmin options to choose from. I checked the firmware and it's the latest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted November 30, 2020 Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 17 hours ago, Davidv said: Thanks Anthony, yes, I'm not saying it's the answer yet but also very weird there wouldn't be any Garmin options to choose from. I checked the firmware and it's the latest. Verify there aren't obstructions. At times, debris can cause this and cleaning the sensor can help. Also, it is probably the setting. If not, let me know and we will take it from there one step at a time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted November 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2020 57 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said: Verify there aren't obstructions. At times, debris can cause this and cleaning the sensor can help. Also, it is probably the setting. If not, let me know and we will take it from there one step at a time. Thanks Greg. When I spoke with my installer this morning he said it shouldn't matter if it's 150 PSI. In any case, I told him to send me the 75 PSI senso since it doesn't sit right with me that the configuration is specifying one sensor while a different one is on the aircraft. I'm not sure if you know the answer to this, but I would expect the sensor is not "smart" in that it sends an actual reading to the EIS but rather sends an electrical charge that corresponds with the calibration on the sensor. If this is the case, it would seem intuitive to me that the 150 PSI sensor would be transmitting a signal that resulted in exactly half the actual PSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 The PSI rating DOES matter. We just had a similar issue on the Dynon Skyview HDX system and is relative as to what voltage the sensor is putting out because the G3x system is looking for "XX VDC" so if the 150 is only showing "20 PSI" by getting the 75 PSI rated one WILL fix the issue because it is showing 1/2 of what you are wanting and once you get the properly rated PSI sensor, it will read correctly because it will be 1/2 of the rating and will give you 2 times the reading as it will vary proportionately. However, there is a setting you should be able to change to make it read correctly as that is a Garmin sensor and if you read on the shoe tag on the sensor, you will see the PN and it should be in the settings selections for that sensor and once you change it, it will be just fine! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said: The PSI rating DOES matter. We just had a similar issue on the Dynon Skyview HDX system and is relative as to what voltage the sensor is putting out because the G3x system is looking for "XX VDC" so if the 150 is only showing "20 PSI" by getting the 75 PSI rated one WILL fix the issue because it is showing 1/2 of what you are wanting and once you get the properly rated PSI sensor, it will read correctly because it will be 1/2 of the rating and will give you 2 times the reading as it will vary proportionately. However, there is a setting you should be able to change to make it read correctly as that is a Garmin sensor and if you read on the shoe tag on the sensor, you will see the PN and it should be in the settings selections for that sensor and once you change it, it will be just fine! Thanks! Just as I suspected... It looks like my other option in the config module is to do a custom setting and calibration for the 150 psi... I don’t know how to do that, is it hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, Davidv said: Thanks! Just as I suspected... It looks like my other option in the config module is to do a custom setting and calibration for the 150 psi... I don’t know how to do that, is it hard? David, I truly wouldn't mess too much with that. I think you are doing the right thing by putting the correct sensor in for what it is calling for. Things like this happen and if this is the only issue you are having, you had a great job done and you should feel very comfortable with the job that was done. I am not sure who did the installation, but I am sure they did a good job. Whatever you do, if they did the installation well and there are minimal issues, let them know it. It is always good to hear both positive and constructive feedback from customers. This is a very hard industry and at times it is thankless as a lot of folks and pilots just do not understand how difficult it is to have everything go without any issues. These people bust their humps and even if it is a company who puts other shops down, they still need positive feedback to help try and turn them around. It is a small industry and working together is how we get things done. Good on you!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Each sensor has a pressure range that corresponds to a voltage output. Plus there are different voltage ranges, such as 0-5 VDC, 1 to 10 VDC, 0-14 VDC, 0-28 VDC. There should be a setting in the G3X configuration pages to use either of the two sensors that you have. I don't have the G3X manual handy so I can't tell you exactly what it should be set to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, philiplane said: Each sensor has a pressure range that corresponds to a voltage output. Plus there are different voltage ranges, such as 0-5 VDC, 1 to 10 VDC, 0-14 VDC, 0-28 VDC. There should be a setting in the G3X configuration pages to use either of the two sensors that you have. I don't have the G3X manual handy so I can't tell you exactly what it should be set to. Thanks, configuration gives you the option to select from 4-5 different sensors but none of them are the 150 PSI garmin one. There is a custom option but then you need to do a calibration. As @Baker Avionics, probably best to just do it the right way and put in the sensor that the G3X has already been set up to accept. Also, given your extensive knowledge of my engine, do you think I'm going to see any differences since the pressure transducer is no longer in between the injector and upper deck? Apparently Garmin couldn't use my existing sensor that I'm sure you're familiar with. I'm currently seeing 21-22 PSI with the 150 psi sensor which should theoretically be in the low 40s with the proper one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said: David, I truly wouldn't mess too much with that. I think you are doing the right thing by putting the correct sensor in for what it is calling for. Things like this happen and if this is the only issue you are having, you had a great job done and you should feel very comfortable with the job that was done. I am not sure who did the installation, but I am sure they did a good job. Whatever you do, if they did the installation well and there are minimal issues, let them know it. It is always good to hear both positive and constructive feedback from customers. This is a very hard industry and at times it is thankless as a lot of folks and pilots just do not understand how difficult it is to have everything go without any issues. These people bust their humps and even if it is a company who puts other shops down, they still need positive feedback to help try and turn them around. It is a small industry and working together is how we get things done. Good on you!!!! Thanks Greg. I know this is very complicated and based on the amount of changes to my panel (posted in another thread), I'm pleasantly surprised that everything seems to be working well. However, my one issue now is that my radios and transponder don't talk to the G3X which it should. Since my installer says they can't, I'm trying to work through Garmin to see what my options are. I only bought all of this equipment because it's supposed to work together. From my standpoint, it's on Garmin to make it right if my installer is adamant that it doesn't (it absolutely should). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 28 minutes ago, Davidv said: Thanks Greg. I know this is very complicated and based on the amount of changes to my panel (posted in another thread), I'm pleasantly surprised that everything seems to be working well. However, my one issue now is that my radios and transponder don't talk to the G3X which it should. Since my installer says they can't, I'm trying to work through Garmin to see what my options are. I only bought all of this equipment because it's supposed to work together. From my standpoint, it's on Garmin to make it right if my installer is adamant that it doesn't (it absolutely should). Well what radios and Transponder do you have? Maybe we can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said: Well what radios and Transponder do you have? Maybe we can help. Along with the G3X I bought the GNC255A and GTR225. I also have a GNX 375. As I mentioned, I only bought the radios because I thought I could control them from the unit. I’d be open to you helping but as you can imagine by the money I spent, either Garmin or my installer needs to make this right because essentially the equipment is not operating as advertised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 17 hours ago, Davidv said: Along with the G3X I bought the GNC255A and GTR225. I also have a GNX 375. As I mentioned, I only bought the radios because I thought I could control them from the unit. I’d be open to you helping but as you can imagine by the money I spent, either Garmin or my installer needs to make this right because essentially the equipment is not operating as advertised. David, am sending you a PM. Do not want to air anything that can be taken as not uplifting in public out of respect for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 Just as an update to this, my shop got a call from Garmin thanks to @KLudwick and they in turn contacted me about rewiring the G3X so it works with radios. They also offered to pay my roundtrip fuel which was nice. Apparently the confusion was that I'd lose the frequency ID feature on the radios due to lack of RS-232 ports on the GNC255 and GTR255. I think this is a fair tradeoff for being able to tune directly from the G3X... They are also going to replace my 150 psi sensor with a 75 psi sensor. Thanks for the help @Baker Avionics and everyone else. I'll let you know the final outcome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 Go Big G! Holy Cow... KL has hit the ground running! Great follow-up David! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted December 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 Just to close the loop on this, changing out the fuel pressure sensor to the 75 psi version solved the problem. Scotty Collins from Precision Avionics was great and really wanted to be sure everything worked as designed. If you're on the west coast, it seems like @Baker Avionics is a great choice, but give Scotty a call if you are on the east or south. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Avionics Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 8 hours ago, Davidv said: Just to close the loop on this, changing out the fuel pressure sensor to the 75 psi version solved the problem. Scotty Collins from Precision Avionics was great and really wanted to be sure everything worked as designed. If you're on the west coast, it seems like @Baker Avionics is a great choice, but give Scotty a call if you are on the east or south. Thank you and DEFINITELY call Scotty as well! Him and I have worked together on a few things and he is just great! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 Great follow-up David! And pirep for Scotty Collins and Precision Avionics... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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