Electric Mooney

[philiplane]

Math is your friend on this subject. Payload desired, cubic volume needed for the payload, defines the overall size & shape of the aircraft. Then factor in the speed desired. Those determine the horsepower required. Next we factor in the range needed. Now we know how much energy storage is required. 

With today's best technology, it is impossible to make an electric Mooney that will fulfill the same mission as a gas powered one. Energy density is the problem. Batteries are unable to compete with liquid fuels. If we have a 100 gallon avgas capacity, we have 600 pounds available for batteries. 600 pounds of batteries won't get your 200 HP equivalent electric motored Mooney off the ground for more than a few minutes. We need a quantum leap in battery technology to come close to competing with liquid fuels. Not just some improvements here and there, we need a battery that stores four times the energy possible today, at half the weight. 

And that is disregarding the current recharge time. 15 minutes for avgas fueling, or 8-12 hours for batteries. So we also need a quick recharge capability. Which so far defies physics.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by philiplane

[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Sorry, I draw the line at Tang !!  

:-)  But the vitamin C!  Yah - I know - that's why I put tang into the story along with velcro to contrast to silicon chips and aids vaccines.

Wow - you get A for effort for actually reading my overly long happy-rant to find my silly tang joke-nugget.

[Blue on Top]

45 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Have anybody seen an electric airplane fly into Oshkosh from somewhere? That's the first place I'd expect to see a real one.

Randall Fishman, Sonex and Airbus (e-Fan II) have all flown AT Oshkosh.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Blue on Top said:

Randall Fishman, Sonex and Airbus (e-Fan II) have all flown AT Oshkosh.

I wasn’t asking about flying at Oshkosh. I was asking about flying to Oshkosh, like the rest of us.

Aircraft weren’t meant to show up on a truck!

[MooneyMitch]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

:-)  But the vitamin C!  Yah - I know - that's why I put tang into the story along with velcro to contrast to silicon chips and aids vaccines.

Wow - you get A for effort for actually reading my overly long happy-rant to find my silly tang joke-nugget.

We expect and depend on progress in life.  What doesn’t exist now can certainly become a reality in the future, obviously, as you’ve pointed out.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

There should be an X Prize for the first electric plane to make a 500 mile cross country. 

I know the solar impulse flew around the world, and there are electric motor gliders that can make it if they can climb to 1000 ft on electric. 

I mean a real practical airplane.

How would you word that?

[aviatoreb]

32 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Math is your friend on this subject. Payload desired, cubic volume needed for the payload, defines the overall size & shape of the aircraft. Then factor in the speed desired. Those determine the horsepower required. Next we factor in the range needed. Now we know how much energy storage is required. 

With today's best technology, it is impossible to make an electric Mooney that will fulfill the same mission as a gas powered one. Energy density is the problem. Batteries are unable to compete with liquid fuels. We need a quantum leap in battery technology to come close to competing with liquid fuels. Not just some improvements here and there, we need a battery that stores four times the energy possible today, at half the weight. 

And that is disregarding the current recharge time. 15 minutes for avgas fueling, or 8-12 hours for batteries. So we also need a quick recharge capability. Which so far defies physics.

 

A big "LIKE" for saying math is our friend.

Easy answer - can we take the TSIO520NB off the nose of my airplane and the avgas out of the wings of my Mooney and replace the engine with electric and the liquid fuel with batteries of today's tech.  The answer is no. NO. 

I don't think anyone is even working on converting 50 year old airplanes to become electric.

I will be shocked if in less than a dozen years time if there aren't useful and standard use electric airplanes.  Maybe private.  Likely passenger commercial.

Batteries are improving.  Lithium based batteries are improving but will these be the ones that power electric airplanes of the future?  I have no idea what is coming.  What the graph attached is showing a steady improving trend in Watts per volume (I wish it was watts per kg shown).

To your question "possible today" - the answer is usually no to almost every single technology innovation that ever was created.  That is the wrong question.  The right question is, is it possible tomorrow or soon thereafter.  So should we work on developing it with confidence that we will get there?  That is for each of us to judge what makes us confident.

If we are simply waiting for an electric conversion for my 1981 Mooney M20k, ok I affirm, no way.  It is not worth it for anyone to work on that.

I am very much hoping to take a ride in one of these airplanes on their usual Saranac Lake, NY (KSLK) to Boston (KBOS) routes but electrified maybe in 2023.

https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane

There are some big players investing in electric so that as it comes, in a dozen years, two dozen years, whatever they will not be flat footed two dozen years behind by then.  They are confident enough in this to invest some series money. Airbus: https://www.airbus.com/innovation/zero-emission/electric-flight.html

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I wasn’t asking about flying at Oshkosh. I was asking about flying to Oshkosh, like the rest of us.

Aircraft weren’t meant to show up on a truck!

Call me when a gas powered antique truck shows up in an electric airplane.

Edited July 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Call me when a gas powered antique truck shows up in an electric airplane.

I would love to, but I doubt either of us will be around....

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

There should be an X Prize for the first electric plane to make a 500 mile cross country. 

I know the solar impulse flew around the world, and there are electric motor gliders that can make it if they can climb to 1000 ft on electric. 

I mean a real practical airplane.

How would you word that?

Somehow that statement alone is too easy since it allows ultra light airplanes - Elon's company could win that prize in two months of development with today's tech.  '

I would state a more practical and exciting application would be coast to coast, say KIAD (with a payload taken from the museum Udvar Hazy) to KLAX with equivalent mass of 10 standard FAA passengers, and a decent speed, say under 10 hours.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I would love to, but I doubt either of us will be around....

Knock on wood - lest we have an overly early exit - I think this will be possible in a dozen years or less.  

As I stated it - there is a cheat and it is possible today - with an overly large electrified blimp.  But lets not cheat and we will speak only of flying on wings.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Somehow that statement alone is too easy since it allows ultra light airplanes - Elon's company could win that prize in two months of development with today's tech.  '

I would state a more practical and exciting application would be coast to coast, say KIAD (with a payload taken from the museum Udvar Hazy) to KLAX with equivalent mass of 10 standard FAA passengers, and a decent speed, say under 10 hours.

Let’s make it easy. 1000 lbs of people and stuff. Coast to coast without swapping batteries in a day.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Let’s make it easy. 1000 lbs of people and stuff. Coast to coast without swapping batteries in a day.

I sort of like 10-FAA people-masses.  What is that these days?  100KG per person (clothed, luggage etc?).  So 1000KG of payload.  Between those two coast-coast airports.  10hours so that there is not some silly gossamer-slow airplane - say 10hrs, and for panache the mass is first delivered from the museum to the airplane.  Maybe the mass can be a red elon car with a manikin dressed in an astronaut suit.

[philiplane]

10 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

 

 

If we are simply waiting for an electric conversion for my 1981 Mooney M20k, ok I affirm, no way.  It is not worth it for anyone to work on that.

I

 

But the built from scratch electric plane will still have the same size, volume, and power to accomplish the same mission. Meaning it will weight the same, or more, as your current Mooney. A new purpose built airframe itself cannot be a quantum leap, because those leaps have already been made since 1903. Propulsion & power storage is the only difference. And the one benefit you get from liquid fuels you don't get in electrics: speed and range increase as fuel burns off. That works backwards in electric planes. You get decreasing energy to propel the same mass, slowing as you go.

Edited July 17, 2020 by philiplane

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Knock on wood - lest we have an overly early exit - I think this will be possible in a dozen years or less.  

As I stated it - there is a cheat and it is possible today - with an overly large electrified blimp.  But lets not cheat and we will speak only of flying on wings.

The Goodyear blimp has about 400 HP And goes about 50 KTS. It’s payload isn’t spectacular. 

I got to play with one once. It was parked at KDVT about 30 years ago. I had airport access, so my friend and I drove to where it was parked. We met the crew chief. He gave us the grand tour, we got to play with the controls, start the engines inflate and deflate the ballonettes and make it light on its feet. Came this close to talking him into taking it for a spin. He was a current pilot.

[Blue on Top]

(sarcastically)  I'm glad Orville and Wilbur didn't have to design an M20 Ultra Acclaim to have their work not be be called useless.  The first "practical" airplane wasn't made (through design evolution) until 1908, 5 years after the first 4 flights totaling less than 2 minutes time.

What I am proposing is that with $5M, I can STC a current certificated airplane.  It may not be practical, but for $5M I have a certificated, electric storage system, distribution system and propulsion system.  Now we're just waiting for a better electrical storage/production system to be "practical".

[aviatoreb]

Just now, philiplane said:

But the built from scratch electric plane will still have the same size, volume, and power to accomplish the same mission. Meaning it will weight the same, or more, as your current Mooney. A new purpose built airframe itself cannot be a quantum leap, because those leaps have already been made since 1903. Propulsion & power storage is the only difference. 

I think eventually, technologically, it could be possible at some point - absolutely, but the cost of certification is a barrier that I think will prevent anyone from certifying such a solution.  That is the same reason I can't put a modern turbo diesel on the nose of my 1981 M20K even though if I could, I might.

But the Diamond DA50 is a newly certified airplane with a 300hp turbo diesel that might be suitable for my M20K (lets not quibble about if the balance will work - I don't know).  So if I want that turbo diesel I need to buy the DA50 - its the certification process that is the barrier in this case and it will be the same I bet when an electric airplane comes. I will need to buy the new airplane.  In that case even more so an issue since I don't know what they will do with all the batteries - it will not be simply a matter if filling up the wings with diesel instead of avgas.  Some serious mechanical engineering will go along with the electrical engineering and aeronautical engineering to place the batteries appropriately.   Maybe it can be done with an M20K but I think the certification costs will make it not worth it for anyone to pull it off available as an STC conversion.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Blue on Top said:

(sarcastically)  I'm glad Orville and Wilbur didn't have to design an M20 Ultra Acclaim to have their work not be be called useless.  The first "practical" airplane wasn't made (through design evolution) until 1908, 5 years after the first 4 flights totaling less than 2 minutes time.

What I am proposing is that with $5M, I can STC a current certificated airplane.  It may not be practical, but for $5M I have a certificated, electric storage system, distribution system and propulsion system.  Now we're just waiting for a better electrical storage/production system to be "practical".

This very nice airplane goes 20 minutes. And does some great aerobatics.  https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/extra-330le-electric-aircraft/

Beats Orville and Wilburs little kite.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[philiplane]

I installed a Deltahawk diesel on a Cirrus SR20 about seven years ago. https://deltahawk.com/engine-specifications

It's still not STC'd. Part of that is FAA, part is that the engine has undergone continual refinement since then and they didn't want to release it until it was perfect. The engine is really intended for the military drone market due to incredible fuel efficiency. Selling a few dozen STC's conversion kits a year would be nice but it isn't going to make the company a fortune. RUUD bought Deltahawk a few years ago and they are keeping the project alive. The plane has resumed flying after being on the ground for extended periods:  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1974B

Edited July 17, 2020 by philiplane

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The Goodyear blimp has about 400 HP And goes about 50 KTS. It’s payload isn’t spectacular. 

I got to play with one once. It was parked at KDVT about 30 years ago. I had airport access, so my friend and I drove to where it was parked. We met the crew chief. He gave us the grand tour, we got to play with the controls, start the engines inflate and deflate the ballonettes and make it light on its feet. Came this close to talking him into taking it for a spin. He was a current pilot.

Forget the goodyear blimp.  How about one of these - https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/hybrid-airship.html

anyway if we allow lighter than air and crazy slow speeds - then we could just trick the contest with an over sized blimp powering just when necessary and mostly just floating across the country.

I always wanted to fly in a blimp!  I had such a funny time listening on the radio at KFDK once with my wife when Snoopy 2 was practicing a touch and go and great photo's out of my cockpit of the thing.

[Blue on Top]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

This very nice airplane goes 20 minutes.

I think that airplane is history.  Crash and burn (order not known); 2 fatalities.  Alice also burned during recharge.  There are still hurdles to clear, but we won't get there if we don't try.

As the saying goes, "If you haven't failed, you're not trying hard enough." 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Forget the goodyear blimp.  How about one of these - https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/hybrid-airship.html

anyway if we allow lighter than air and crazy slow speeds - then we could just trick the contest with an over sized blimp powering just when necessary and mostly just floating across the country.

I always wanted to fly in a blimp!  I had such a funny time listening on the radio at KFDK once with my wife when Snoopy 2 was practicing a touch and go and great photo's out of my cockpit of the thing.

I'm pretty sure the reason we didn't get to go flying is because the ground crew had started drinking....

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

I think that airplane is history.  Crash and burn (order not known); 2 fatalities.  Alice also burned during recharge.  There are still hurdles to clear, but we won't get there if we don't try.

As the saying goes, "If you haven't failed, you're not trying hard enough." 

This is one post where I wanted to give you a sad face because of the crash.  A like because I agreed with the try thing, and a super-like.  We need to have an all of the above button to extra conflicted like.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Forget the goodyear blimp.  How about one of these - https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/hybrid-airship.html

anyway if we allow lighter than air and crazy slow speeds - then we could just trick the contest with an over sized blimp powering just when necessary and mostly just floating across the country.

I always wanted to fly in a blimp!  I had such a funny time listening on the radio at KFDK once with my wife when Snoopy 2 was practicing a touch and go and great photo's out of my cockpit of the thing.

I will take my Moller Sky Car to get on that beast!

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I will take my Moller Sky Car to get on that beast!

The Moller Sky Car was fantastically over the top.

But this little baby deeply obsoletes that never-happened thing. https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/evtols-urban-mobility/ehang-holds-aav-sightseeing-flight-trial/

Let's Uber that baby.