WOULD YOU BUY A HIGH TIME MOONEY

[MATTS875]

Hello , I am looking at a 6800 TT mooney 201 .I understand that the TT is High but should that make me shigh away from it. I was debating a F model but really like the 201 better.go figure. i know the ideal would be a lower TT 201 but that is out of my budget.The plane has fuel bladders, 880 SMOH .please let me know what your thoughts are..thanks

[Sabremech]

Yes, I purchased a 1966 M20C with 7500 hours, No regrets !!

[fantom]

Quote: JimR

The fact that yours is coming with bladders is a bonus.  I had to add them to mine.

 

Fine to buy a high time Mooney after a good PPI, if it has bladders OK, but adding them rather than fixing leaks is questionable, at best. ")">

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: fantom

[231Pilot]

I prefer wet wing (no added weight).  The bladders in my J are in the pilot and passengers.

[rockydoc]

OK Guys, here's a related question.  I just purchased a M20B that has 1600 SMOH.  Assuming that the engine has been well maintained and has no gross defects, what can I expect as far as the total engine hours (more than 2000) before overhaul is necessary.  And, other than low compression or excessive oil consumption or bearing noise or lack of power, what criteria should i use to know when the engine needs to be overhauled?

[Marauder]

I just saw a Mooney (G version) that my mechanic says has over 11,000 hours on it! It was cleaner looking both inside and out than mine (I got to look into all the nooks and crannies since it was in for an annual). I got to think that if you address issues, the airframe can go quite a few hours.

[Marauder]

OK Guys, here's a related question. I just purchased a M20B that has 1600 SMOH. Assuming that the engine has been well maintained and has no gross defects, what can I expect as far as the total engine hours (more than 2000) before overhaul is necessary. And, other than low compression or excessive oil consumption or bearing noise or lack of power, what criteria should i use to know when the engine needs to be overhauled?

I would begin doing oil analysis on a regular basis. Trends in metal wear begin showing up often (but not always) before fragments begin forming. Some use Blackstone, other WearCheck and I'm sure there are others.

[rockydoc]

Thanks for the feedback Guys.  But, I'm interested in an average time (how many hours) the engine can be expected to go before major overhaul is necessary.

[rockydoc]

If you are looking for an average, TBO is probably your best answer.  Some go longer, some don't.  At 1600 SMOH hopefully you priced your new engine as a runout and any time that you get out of it will be free. 

 

FWIW, my current engine is a factory reman with about 1700 hours on it.  Assuming that it is still chugging along nicely at TBO, with no signs of imminent failure, my current plan is to refresh the accessories and possibly even the cylinders at TBO and to keep on going.

 

Jim

Yes, I purchased it as a runnout, BUT, hope springs eternal, eh?  Thanks for sharing how you plan on handling yours.  You mentioned, "possibly" even "refreshing" the cylinders at TBO.  What would be your criteria to determine if you would actually do them.  And, would you replace the entire jug or what?  i.e. what do you mean by "refreshing" the cylinders.  And, would you buy the jugs out right, complete with pistons, rods, rings, bearings and have your mx install them or what exactly?  Thanks for taking time to answer.

[rockydoc]

I'm far from an expert on this, but to me refreshing would mean sending the jugs out to an engine overhauler to be IRANed, which stands for "Inspect and Repair and Necessary".  This gives the expert the discretion to replace only the parts that need to be replaced, and to return the good parts to service.  If you tell them to "overhaul" the cylinder assemblies they have much less discretion.  The same applies to propellors.  Since I would not be expecting my refreshed cylinders to last an entire overhaul cycle of 2000 hours, I think that a good IRAN would give me the confidence to run them for another 500 hours or perhaps longer.

 

Or I might decide to do nothing or to do a top overhaul or maybe even a major overhaul.  We'll see.

 

The criteria would be things like compression, oil consumption, and oil and filter analysis. 

 

Jim

Thanks for sharing that point of view Jim.

[carusoam]

As for planes with high time engines...

I have purchased two in my lifetime.

For perspective...

Any car I have purchased since the '80s has been used. (but not highly used, <50k mi...)

----

The objective is to buy something at an extreme discount from new with as much capability as available on the market.

The risk is to buy something that is in an unknown condition. ( unknown unknowns... )

To mitigate the risk, use the reputable Pre-Purchase Inspection.

If the PPI is too expensive...

Statistically, your flying may become too expensive for you to handle if something major breaks...

Then, selling a broken plane is a challenge for ordinary people. (most Mooney pilots aren't ordinary people...)

My first plane was purchased with a list of "what I could afford to go wrong"

1 cylinder = a month of day care

An engine overhaul = a year of college expenses

A leaking hose = nice dinner out

A new paint job = a nice used automobile

A new generator and controller < a month's rent!

Fortunately, early on, I never needed an engine overhaul or paint.

Be extra aware of planes that have high time without flying...

Does that answer match your question?

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

I IRAN'd all 4 cylinders on my J at 1650 SMOH to deal with low compression on two, but more importantly, lots of blow-by/oil consumption.  Cost was reasonable and I did most of the R&R labor under supervision and I'm still happy at 2000 SMOH.  Plan to keep running until the engine tells me it is time to go out to pasture.  

 

I also agree with Jim's sentiments on the relatively high airframe time.  It can be a non-issue so long as the plane was maintained.  You could find a 1500-2000 TT J that is in worse shape than a 7000 TT version with a good maintenance history.  Generally Mooneys do not have fatigue issues like some other breeds, so your attention should be on corrosion and all of the wear items like rod bearings, landing gear donuts, etc.  I wouldn't think twice about buying it, especially since the price will be lower than an equivalent one with 2000 hours.  Good luck!

[rockydoc]

I IRAN'd all 4 cylinders on my J at 1650 SMOH to deal with low compression on two, but more importantly, lots of blow-by/oil consumption.  Cost was reasonable and I did most of the R&R labor under supervision and I'm still happy at 2000 SMOH.  Plan to keep running until the engine tells me it is time to go out to pasture.  

 

I also agree with Jim's sentiments on the relatively high airframe time.  It can be a non-issue so long as the plane was maintained.  You could find a 1500-2000 TT J that is in worse shape than a 7000 TT version with a good maintenance history.  Generally Mooneys do not have fatigue issues like some other breeds, so your attention should be on corrosion and all of the wear items like rod bearings, landing gear donuts, etc.  I wouldn't think twice about buying it, especially since the price will be lower than an equivalent one with 2000 hours.  Good luck!

What criteria will you use to know when your engine has told you "it is time to goout to pasture?"

[jetdriven]

An oil filter full of metal is one, another is cracked crankcases, bad cylinders (although you can OH them as they go bad for cheap), and low oil pressure.

[rockydoc]

An oil filter full of metal is one, another is cracked crankcases, bad cylinders (although you can OH them as they go bad for cheap), and low oil pressure.

Thanks.  That's pretty specific and and easy criteria to keep track of.  You said a filter full of metal is one.  I've always had the oil filters cut in half and sent to the lab, but I was looking at Blackstone's website earlier and they say aspirate an oil sample from the dipstick and send it in.  This doesn't seem nearly as good as sending in half of the oil filter.  Do you know if I could take their sample from the oil that is in the oil filter and accomplish the same thing as sending the filter itself to them?

[jetdriven]

You just drain the oil from midstream when you change it.  If you want to, you can rinse the filter media in a small bucket of mineral spirits then strain through a coffee filter, but you will know when it is making metal. Lycoming says investigate if iron PPM exceeds 99 PPM in 50 hours, and anything over 1/2 teaspoon of metal from the filter as grounds for removal from service.

 

I think Blackstone advises against taking a sample from the filter as it will be false high for wear metals.

[KSMooniac]

I concur with Byron's assessment.  I've gotten out of the sampling habit, but would just stick the cup in mid-stream during an oil change and send it in. I would only send in an oil filter if I found more metal than usual, which isn't much at all of course.  /knocking on wood

[fantom]

I sample once a year, at annual time...just because.

 

But, I cut the filter on every oil change...just to make sure the engine isn't coming apart.