M20kflyer99 Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Is anyone running dual fuel flow gauges? I have an MVP50 primary that not going to be on the third transducer in three years. I'm thinking I'd like a backup MP/RMP/FF but not sure how that would work with breaking into the fuel system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Is anyone running dual fuel flow gauges? I have an MVP50 primary that not going to be on the third transducer in three years. I'm thinking I'd like a backup MP/RMP/FF but not sure how that would work with breaking into the fuel system. I have dual MP, RPM, FF & FP gauges. What are you looking for? How everything is connected? I’m headed over to the airport in a bit and can snap some pictures. I have an EI setup on the right side which includes a FP-5L. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 if you are going thru transducers, then some thing is wrong. check to see that it is installed correctly IAW the installation manual, I have seen them just put inline any where they fit and mounted where they should not be mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20kflyer99 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, orionflt said: if you are going thru transducers, then some thing is wrong. check to see that it is installed correctly IAW the installation manual, I have seen them just put inline any where they fit and mounted where they should not be mounted. New MX will be double-checking this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20kflyer99 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Marauder said: I have dual MP, RPM, FF & FP gauges. What are you looking for? How everything is connected? I’m headed over to the airport in a bit and can snap some pictures. I have an EI setup on the right side which includes a FP-5L. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Next time you pop the cowling, can you snap a pic of both transducers and their mounting locations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Next time you pop the cowling, can you snap a pic of both transducers and their mounting locations? I have the cowl off and snap this picture. The gizmo on the left I believe is the fuel pressure transducer for the JPI and the one on the right is the one for the EI FP-5L. The red guy below is the fuel flow transducer and it is shared by both. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 12, 2019 Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 Left unit. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20kflyer99 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2019 58 minutes ago, Marauder said: I have the cowl off and snap this picture. The gizmo on the left I believe is the fuel pressure transducer for the JPI and the one on the right is the one for the EI FP-5L. The red guy below is the fuel flow transducer and it is shared by both. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Hmm. That’s a bummer. I was hoping for two redundant transducers since that’s what keeps on breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 Hmm. That’s a bummer. I was hoping for two redundant transducers since that’s what keeps on breaking. What transducer are you using? Mine is a FT-60. The original one was installed in 1995 when the FP-5L was installed. Upgraded to a new one with the JPI. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 Hmm. That’s a bummer. I was hoping for two redundant transducers since that’s what keeps on breaking. Seems like you'd be better off finding and fixing what the cause of your failing transducers. They normally last for many years. Additionally, the installation requirements make it really difficult to get one good installation in. But maybe there is a way. I haven't heard of one yet. But like@Marauder I also have dual MAP and RPM displays since those are grounding items. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 I have the red fuel transducer and MVP-50. Same deal mine is intermittent (will go from 0 to 99 GPH and bounce around sometimes or just work) after 7yrs and have a new one to put on at some point. I suspect based on discussion on with others the red ones just don’t last that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 Second time today... the word Now and Not have been substituted strangely... in the OP. then I got confused regarding what plane we are discussing the M20L May have different requirements than the M20K, even though I doubt it... just confirm... Aside from that... Might want to discuss the failure... Some reading challenges are caused by things like air bubbles entering the fuel system upstream... Others are simply the paddle wheel sticking... a proper cleaning, and it is back in business... Then there is the idea/challenge of mounting two in the system... following the straight in and straight out guidance can take up a lot of real estate even if it is allowed... Since nobody else is using two transducers... consider the request... unique. And worth looking into further/deeper... Nice robust sensor in the Marauder pic... two 90° elbows, one in and one out of a sensor TYPE that is well known to have challenges with this type of installation situation... what failed? How did it fail? What FF range are you using with the M20L (what engine do you have?) Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20kflyer99 Posted April 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 The transducer failed both times by having a very high FF at idle (6-8gph) and erratic bouncy readings at power. Jumps between 3-25+ every second with any number in between. I have a M20K with the LB in it. My fuel pump, distribution unit and metering unit were recently overhauled. The system has been rechecked after 10+ hrs of flight to make sure mixture and flows were correct. All done at MSC. I would consider the FF to be terry critical on a turbo engine so I’d like to get this squared away and redundant if possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 The transducer failed both times by having a very high FF at idle (6-8gph) and erratic bouncy readings at power. Jumps between 3-25+ every second with any number in between. I have a M20K with the LB in it. My fuel pump, distribution unit and metering unit were recently overhauled. The system has been rechecked after 10+ hrs of flight to make sure mixture and flows were correct. All done at MSC. I would consider the FF to be terry critical on a turbo engine so I’d like to get this squared away and redundant if possible The only way you will be able to get redundancy for FF is to run a second transducer in series. I would think you could you could put one in line behind or in front of another. The FT-60 has been really reliable for me. For the units that failed, did you have anyone try to determine failure mode? I could see a contaminant restricting the movement of the wheel or a worn wheel. The original FT-60 I had lasted 17 years and it was changed out to a new one since the JPI 900 came with a new one. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20kflyer99 Posted April 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Marauder said: The only way you will be able to get redundancy for FF is to run a second transducer in series. I would think you could you could put one in line behind or in front of another. The FT-60 has been really reliable for me. For the units that failed, did you have anyone try to determine failure mode? I could see a contaminant restricting the movement of the wheel or a worn wheel. The original FT-60 I had lasted 17 years and it was changed out to a new one since the JPI 900 came with a new one. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro The last one was sent out to EI for warranty and they sent a new one after a bench test. Didn’t specify what failed. This time I’m past that but will still send it to them for analysis in-case there is a trend of some type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 The proper installation, that minimizes erratic FF readings and is proven to provide longevity uses a Mooney provided bracket to support the transducer just forward and above #5 cyl. The unit is directly behind the front of the upper cowling - in fact positioning is trail and error so that the upper cowl does not hit it. The entire transducer and both hose couplings are wrapped in fire-sleeve to minimize fluctuations from vapor lock like symptoms.I am sharing these details to help you get a sense of if yours is properly installed. But you can also refer to your IPC, which provides a diagram of the FF Transducer. I would recommend starting with checking your installation and if not done properly you probably have the solution right there to correcting your issues.But right now based on your comments, I’d think there is high probability your installation is missing the fire-sleeve and perhaps more.Lastly, once you look at your installation and recognize a second one must be installed behind the first one - between the pump and servo - you’ll get an appreciation for the even worse environment a second one would be positioned with need to figure a way to support it above the cylinders. I.e. I’d expect a second one further back will be less reliable and more subjective to fluctuations from heat.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 15, 2019 Report Share Posted April 15, 2019 Flyer99... You might want to check the title of your thread... put M20K in place of M20L You are able to edit it. There is a button that will be available only to you, the OP... This might get one or two more MSers that may have skipped the thread based on the errant title. It is amazing to see the quality of MSers looking into a FF challenge for a plane that few of us have even seen... At MS... you are in good hands... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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