Sabremech Cowling Mod Testing (Ongoing)

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Ah, then you’ll need to run at your most full power settings then. I should have said full throttle instead of 25”. 

David

I'll run a speed check next time up. We may get a couple of days of rain...

[Bob_Belville]

16 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Bob, you had an ARI cowl before this mod, correct?  

I’ll try to put a little aluminum tape on my #1.  

 

Yes, ARI from 20 years ago. And the baffling included sheet metal in front of both #1 and #2 exposing more of #2 than #1. Note also that the horizontal baffling and seal is attached to the cowl whereas with the SabreCowl_© that baffling/seal is attached to the engine. The 2" tape is probably slightly less that the old sheet metal. And #2 doesn't have anything yet though I wonder if tape on #2 might help oil temp.

You'll note a lot of RTV Silicone on my old baffle seals. I've been trying to close off leaks for 6 years. I probably should have added ~2# to W&B.  

[Browncbr1]

24 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yes, ARI from 20 years ago. And the baffling included sheet metal in front of both #1 and #2 exposing more of #2 than #1. Note also that the horizontal baffling and seal is attached to the cowl whereas with the SabreCowl_© that baffling/seal is attached to the engine. The 2" tape is probably slightly less that the old sheet metal. And #2 doesn't have anything yet though I wonder if tape on #2 might help oil temp.

You'll note a lot of RTV Silicone on my old baffle seals. I've been trying to close off leaks for 6 years. I probably should have added ~2# to W&B.  

Do you know if those angle plates in front of #1 and #2 the part numbers called out in SB182?  Or are they different as part of the ARI kit?  Do you think you will retain them sense the tape seemed to help?

[Bob_Belville]

14 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Do you know if those angle plates in front of #1 and #2 the part numbers called out in SB182?  Or are they different as part of the ARI kit?  Do you think you will retain them sense the tape seemed to help?

I do not believe SB182 was involved. I have the paperwork on the ARI STC in my hangar files and will look to see if that was part of it. At the moment I suspect we'll make sheet metal baffling for both sides at some point after playing with tape to see what might help on the left (pilot) side get more air through the oil cooler. 

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

Do you know if those angle plates in front of #1 and #2 the part numbers called out in SB182?  Or are they different as part of the ARI kit?  Do you think you will retain them sense the tape seemed to help?

They are not part of S/B 182. I also had the ARI cowl enclosure on mine prior to my mod. I had the original stock air dam plates. My baffling as part of the ARI kit was quite a bit different than Bob's. I'm not sure if this is a difference between an O-360 and IO-360 Kit from ARI. 

Bob, I hope to have the measurements for the Van's air dam plates to you tonight. I just need to verify what I have is correct before I send it to you. Don't want to make you do extra work.

David

[Sabremech]

57 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I do not believe SB182 was involved. I have the paperwork on the ARI STC in my hangar files and will look to see if that was part of it. At the moment I suspect we'll make sheet metal baffling for both sides at some point after playing with tape to see what might help on the left (pilot) side get more air through the oil cooler. 

Hi Bob,

I'm thinking you're going to have to modify your oil cooler location if adding an air dam plate in front of #2 cylinder doesn't help. Matt's is much higher on the #4 cylinder with maybe a third of it covered by the cylinder fins. 

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Hi Bob,
I'm thinking you're going to have to modify your oil cooler location if adding an air dam plate in front of #2 cylinder doesn't help. Matt's is much higher on the #4 cylinder with maybe a third of it covered by the cylinder fins. 
 
 

Yeah, that's what I have been thinking. I'm going to talk to LASAR about their experience. Perhaps they tweaked their design.

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[Marauder]

Yeah, that's what I have been thinking. I'm going to talk to LASAR about their experience. Perhaps they tweaked their design.

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Let me know what you find out. I’m sitting on a Lasar oil relocation kit waiting for David’s doubler. Hopefully Matt will post some new numbers to see how this temperature thing shapes up.


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[Marauder]

Do you know if those angle plates in front of #1 and #2 the part numbers called out in SB182?  Or are they different as part of the ARI kit?  Do you think you will retain them sense the tape seemed to help?

I’m headed to the airport this afternoon and will post pictures of my baffles in front of the cylinders. I believe SB 182 was installed on all factory built planes with guppy mouths at some point. Mine certainly has plates there.


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[Marauder]

Another short, 1 hour, test flight. The 2" tape on cyl 1 worked very well. E.g. at 65% power, LOP, 5000' Cowl flaps closed: CHTs 345/321/348/328. And @ 79% power CHTs were 351/334/365/331. (OAT much warmer than yesterday +4C at 5000'). I believe this is quite a bit lower than "before" for my E and quite acceptable. 
Oil Temp peaked at 220F in BTTW, high power climb and settled down to 200F in cruise.  This is similar to "before" and I'd like to improve but if not it too is acceptable. (50W straight oil and I took off with 5.75 qts indicated. I suppose lighter weight and more oil would lower temps a little.)
Speed... I don't think I can say much. I had alt hld on the autopilot and I'm flying on the lee side of the highest ridge of mountains east of the Rockies. Next time I'll trim level and let the altitude do its thing. But my gut is I won't see 6-8 ktas improvement. 
Short clip is while level at 5000', 65% power, LOP. (Turning the phone for wide angle in the middle of the scan did not work out very well!)
 
VID_20180310_112623405[1].mp4

Bob - let me know your power settings, altitudes and mixture setting and I will try to duplicate. I flew yesterday and was at 8500’, showing 69% power, 14°F and I leaned to 100° rich of peak. I know if I brought the mixture back to the normal 80° ROP, I would expect my temps to be in the high 290s or low 300s.

Oil temps were low at 167°.




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[Marauder]

They are not part of S/B 182. I also had the ARI cowl enclosure on mine prior to my mod. I had the original stock air dam plates. My baffling as part of the ARI kit was quite a bit different than Bob's. I'm not sure if this is a difference between an O-360 and IO-360 Kit from ARI. 
Bob, I hope to have the measurements for the Van's air dam plates to you tonight. I just need to verify what I have is correct before I send it to you. Don't want to make you do extra work.
David

David - can you post some pictures of Matt’s original baffling in front of the 1/2 cylinders?


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[Bob_Belville]

David - can you post some pictures of Matt’s original baffling in front of the 1/2 cylinders?


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Chris, I'll do it. Pics of your baffles would be of interest, your CHTs/oil temps are the lowest.

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[Browncbr1]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I’m headed to the airport this afternoon and will post pictures of my baffles in front of the cylinders. I believe SB 182 was installed on all factory built planes with guppy mouths at some point. Mine certainly has plates there.


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Thanks, mine does not have those pieces but it lived it’s whole life in Minnesota before I bought it.   Never had a graphic engine monitor either. I would just like to have my number One a little warmer and even

[Marauder]

Chris, I'll do it. Pics of your baffles would be of interest, your CHTs/oil temps are the lowest.

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#1



#2




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[Sabremech]

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

#1



#2




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That’s the same as Matt’s currently.

Also for Bob, your oil cooler looks to be the same as Matt’s. Can’t really get it much higher. Might be better to relocate it off of the baffling and use a duct from say Air Flow Systems to route scat hose to it. 

David

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Bob - let me know your power settings, altitudes and mixture setting and I will try to duplicate. I flew yesterday and was at 8500’, showing 69% power, 14°F and I leaned to 100° rich of peak. I know if I brought the mixture back to the normal 80° ROP, I would expect my temps to be in the high 290s or low 300s.

Oil temps were low at 167°.




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Chris, those temps are at 100 ROP? That means peak is 1325 +/-. My EGTs peak at 1500+. And 100 ROP would be lower than 12.0 gph, more like 9.

[Marauder]

Chris, those temps are at 100 ROP? That means peak is 1325 +/-. My EGTs peak at 1500+. And 100 ROP would be lower than 12.0 gph, more like 9.

They are 100° ROP. Max EGT is around 1400°. I’m flying this afternoon. What settings do you want me to fly?

[Hank]

Sounds like people are forgetting that the actual EGT number is meaningless (since it varies due to installation differences and thermocouple type), all that matters is the distance from peak . . . Mine usually peaks 1500-1525°F, so three planes have almost 200° difference, burning the same fuel with the same compression. Meaningless!

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

They are 100° ROP. Max EGT is around 1400°. I’m flying this afternoon. What settings do you want me to fly?

 

For my IO360A1A 75% at 5000' is 2500/23.5. or at 7500' is is 2500/22.8. FF for best power is supposed to be 11.7 (5000') or 10.7 (7500').

I won't get to fly tomorrow, 90% rain, but I'll do 75% best power on Tuesday. And get pics of speed on 3 headings and temps. I'll try to do it at 5000' and 7500'. 

[Bob_Belville]

28 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

That’s the same as Matt’s currently.

Also for Bob, your oil cooler looks to be the same as Matt’s. Can’t really get it much higher. Might be better to relocate it off of the baffling and use a duct from say Air Flow Systems to route scat hose to it. 

David

Yeah. I might gain an inch by rerouting the ignition wires but I think I'll study the 201 transition. If it would fit maybe Jerry or Alan has a salvage part.

[Marauder]

For my IO360A1A 75% at 5000' is 2500/23.5. or at 7500' is is 2500/22.8. FF for best power is supposed to be 11.7 (5000') or 10.7 (7500').

I won't get to fly tomorrow, 90% rain, but I'll do 75% best power on Tuesday. And get pics of speed on 3 headings and temps. I'll try to do it at 5000' and 7500'. 

 

Ok, here are my numbers from today:

 

Flew 5500 @ 75%, leaned to 80° ROP, FF 10.9, MP 23.7, RPM 2530, 155 KTAS

 

 

 

Flew 6500 @ 72%, leaned to 80° ROP, FF 11.0, MP 22.7, RPM 2520, 153 KTAS

 

 

 

Flew 7500 @ 70%, leaned to 80° ROP, FF 11.0, MP 21.7, RPM 2540, 152 KTAS

 

 

 

What I think is strange is that my fuel flow hovered right around 10.9 GPH at the different altitudes.

 

 

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[Dream to fly]

I don't want to derail this thread but I have been pondering all the heat variations to the cylinders and was wondering has anyone mapped the air flow under the cowl.   Actually using a digital cam, some string taped to the top hanging down about 1.5in and watch what happens while cruising.   I've had to do something very similar on a kit car that was built and was having a terrible time keeping it from overheating.  It turns out I had a tornado occurring under the hood and it was fix by literally keeping the back of the hood up 1/2 in.  Don't shoot me just offering an idea...

[Guitarmaster]

100 ROP. 6500MSL

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[Guitarmaster]

Climbing at 120 MPH

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[Guitarmaster]

3500msl, 40 LOP

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