landing speeds and flap settings?

[Shadrach]

Quote: alex

I feel like I am in an episode of Jerry Springer!

[Hank]

Wow! What a thread. Some people feel very strongly that there is only ONE right way to land.

As a beginner, I learned the easy way, mostly the same way I landed the 172 I used to earn my wings.

Keep it easy--90 mph downwind, 90 mph base, 85 mph final. Why vary speed all the way around?

Downwind:  pitch & throttle for 90, level flight. Drop Takeoff flaps then gear to start down. Adjust trim a lot.

Base:  pitch & throttle for 90 mph, continue descent.

Final:  pitch & throttle for 85 mph, continue descent. Adjust flaps to maintain aim point for numbers, not usually visible over the trees at my home field. Hold 200' agl until over the trees, throttle to idle, decelerate over the highway. Hit the numbers at 80 mph - 3 mph for every 300 lbs. under gross.

This puts me down usually on the 2nd or 3rd stripe. Home is 3001' long, trees at both ends that hide the numbers. Brake gently, turn around on the runway using full right rudder, no brakes, back-taxi to the turnoff at stripe #4, the only paved runway exit. Taxiing through the grass is a shortcut I don't use much--why hurry to the ramp?

I'm a firm believer in the KISS method.

My Owners Manual says to put in Takeoff flaps and gear abeam the touchdown point, then adjust flaps and power on final to achieve desired glide. So that's what I do.

Keep It Simple.

YMMV, and apparently it does for many.

I use full flaps when needed, half flaps when possible, often somewhere in between. I really don't look at the indicator once I put them to Takeoff on downwind, and I don't look at the ASI much beyond halfway down final, when it should be pointing at 85 mph.

Oh, yes, even in our wonderful Mooneys, in the pattern it still works the same old way--pitch for speed, power for altitude. Even with the trees getting large, I can hold/climb by only adding power and keeping the yoke forward.

Learn your plane, practice a lot, feel the wind. Sure, the rudder and ailerons are connected, but use both sets of controls. Overshoot your base leg? Keep a standard rate turn and fly the airplane back. That keeps me away from the ridgeline parallel to the runway [dead ahead on final], comfortably above stall, and reminds me to pay more attention to groundspeed the next time. No two landings are alike, why should any two flap settings be alike?

"Extend flaps as required on final approach to adjust for variations in wind, glide angle, and other variables."--Mooney Aircraft Corporation, Kerrville, Texas

Once you are comfortable flying and landing the plane, THEN worry about short fields, wheels hitting the numbers, spot landings, salvaging poor approaches, etc. Get the basics down first!

[Vref]

My personal Philosophy:

1)little experience on the plane.....fly the numbers as instructed

2)bit more experience.....discover some more flight envelope

3)a lot of experience......fly the full flight envelope (or whatever feels right that day...)

I think the trick is feel the aircraft....and not compute the Vref

Amen....

Luc

PS....jeeeeeeee a lot of excitement here, ..

 

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Shadrach

 

Larry,

I think that if you use the equations posted in this thread, you will find that your landings improve. Try to master full flap landings. Landing full flaps will be gentler on equipment (especially brakes on shorter runways), and offers superior visability on final because of the inherent pitch change.

One thing that bothered me when I was green was the difference in feel at slow speeds. Mooneys tend to be firmer in roll than in pitch during most flight ops. However, as the plane gets slower the control harmony changes. This can feel foreign after spending time at higher speeds. This leads to the urge to fly a bit faster because it feels it feels too soft or "mushy"... A good exorcise is to go up and fly around @ 1.1 and 1.2 Vso in landing configuration, and don't forget your feet, the aileron/rudder interconnect is typicaly not enough in slow flight. Practice slow descents and shallow turns.  Take an instructor with you the next time if it makes you more comfortable.  Good luck!

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Vref

My personal Philosophy:

1)little experience on the plane.....fly the numbers as instructed

This appies to all aircraft and also applies when you have a lot of experience in type.

2)bit more experience.....discover some more flight envelope

You shouldn't be flying any airplane if you're not comfortably proficient in the entire performance envelope.

3)a lot of experience......fly the full flight envelope (or whatever feels right that day...)

Experience does not allow you to "manipulate" the controls better ("fly the full flight envelope"), it allows you to fly smarter.

I think the trick is feel the aircraft....and not compute the Vref

"Feeling" the aircraft is another term for flying by the seat of your pants. Definately not the smartest way to fly high performance aircraft like Mooneys and a sure fire way to find yourself in serious trouble as you climb up the aircraft performance ladder. Mooneys (and all other high performance airplanes) are quite predictable in their performance. Do the math, fly the numbers, the results are predictable and consistant. 

Amen....

Luc

PS....jeeeeeeee a lot of excitement here, ..

 

 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: WardHolbrook

This needs to be seen more than one. It is very important.

[Parker_Woodruff]

As a side note, please note that your 1.x Vso calculation needs to be based on CAS, not IAS.  Not a big deal in most Mooneys, but a huge deal in a C172 or many other aircraft where the difference between CAS and IAS can be huge on the low and high ends of the Airspeed arc.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Flying the book numbers should yield a corresponding "feeling".  If your feeling is different every time you fly, you're doing something wrong, or not taking into account changes in atmospheric conditions or airframe configurations.

Or you're not consistent with your rudder coordination, etc., etc.

Fly the POH.  Mooney doesn't lie if you're flying it correctly.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

As a side note, please note that your 1.x Vso calculation needs to be based on CAS, not IAS.  Not a big deal in most Mooneys, but a huge deal in a C172 or many other aircraft where the difference between CAS and IAS can be huge on the low and high ends of the Airspeed arc.

[MARZ]

Hey Larrynoel -  (Larry??) that was an excellent question to get the juices flowing eh?   

Im a rookie by most terms but I have to echo the 80 MIAS over the fence (actually trimmed for 80 MIAS all the way down final - nothng like a stable approach to allow you to concentrate on the landing )  Modulate power - like others my flare takes care of decreasing air speed and my stall horn is starting to go off about the time I touch. 

I'll make the fist turn off on 9 if I'm in a hurry but mostly the second so I don't wear out the brakes...

I think I'm going to ask about LOP operations next LOL 

 

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hey! no fair! He's already asked the three blade propeller question!

After this round of landing a Mooney which I followed on the AOPA site some weeks ago,(many of the same players) , I'd rather go the bladder vs sealed tanks route ! Better yet , is GatorAid (original flavor) GREEN or YELLOW?

I've decided that my lack of knowledge on these subjects make me want to go work on my boat where there are as many ways to SAIL a boat improperly as to LAND a Mooney improperly.

I have adopted a "prayer for landing" as part of my check list. Nobody thought of  that!

[MARZ]

Quote: sleepingsquirrel

I have adopted a "prayer for landing" as part of my check list.

[Hank]

Quote: maropers

My low flight time fiance asked if it were alright if she closed her eyes for the landing...  I said go right ahead - I do. 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: maropers

...My low flight time fiance asked if it were alright if she closed her eyes for the landing...  I said go right ahead - I do. 

[Shadrach]

Quote: WardHolbrook

 I'll second everything you have written. The Mooney wing is very "jet like" in that it likes to go fast, but that's not to say that it doesn't do very well at slower speeds as well - it just feels different. It's a shared trait with a lot of high performance aircraft. You guys that are having problems with float, just slow it down a bit. If you don't have confidence in your ability to consistently  control your airspeed as a steady 1.2 Vso it's probably time for a little dual. 

[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: maropers

[John Pleisse]

AY-ay-AMEN sleepingsquirrel...... 70KIAS across the numbers. (Good Lord).

[Vref]

Quote: WardHolbrook

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Shadrach

Thanks Ward, Although no need to second all of my typos... I need to more careful when posting before my morning coffee...

Good luck with getting the tube out tomorrow! I'm sure things will go well. Godspeed!

[flight2000]

Quote: WardHolbrook

 Thank you! The worst part of the surgery has definately been that @%#$& catheter. It's been a long two weeks and you can tell I'm pretty bored.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: flight2000

 Thank you! The worst part of the surgery has definately been that @%#$& catheter. It's been a long two weeks and you can tell I'm pretty bored.