M20C buy or walk away

[FlyJose]

Well the saga of buying a Mooney continues...have the plane on pre-buy, mechanic has found about 15,000 worth of needed repairs (not done yet), mostly it comes from leaking wings (massive and unsafe as per mechanic and recomends either a full strip and seal or bladers (his preference), fuel selector needs upgrade etc etc. The aircraft has long range monroy tanks and they drilled on the spar to get tubbing etc...seller seems willing to have everything fixed but just does not feels right at this point...going into the pre buy from what the seller stated this was going to be in an out with no issues

[GeorgePerry]

Based on your post, I'd pass and here's why.  Leaking fuel tanks are impossible to miss.  So logic says the owner knew about the problem and (1) chose not to fix them (2) chose not to tell you about the extent of the problem (3) lack of trust due to the discrepancy between the way the seller described and actual condition of the plane.  in either case it's indicative of an airplane not well cared for.  No telling what other "major" problems the seller failed to mention or take care of.  Let someone else jump on that grenade...Move on smartly

 

[KSMooniac]

I'd be curious to see the entire squawk list itemized, including any items that might be "discretionary" and not "airworthy" items per the shop's opinion.  Is the shop an MSC, or at least very familiar with Mooneys?  If you like the plane enough to get it into pre-buy, I wouldn't give up on it easily.  If the seller is willing to get it up to spec on his nickel, then it could end up being a good plane in the end...maybe.    I'm not familiar with the details of a Monroy installation, but it is entirely possible that drilling a hole in the web of the spar is part of the engineering, so don't dismiss that as a squawk unless the shop knows specifically how it is supposed to be installed.

George's observation about the character/behavior of the owner either deferring MX or being too clueless to know what is going on with the plane, or worse yet intentionally misleading is also a huge concern.  Your dealing with him/her should give you a feeling as to whether he/she is a good, responsible owner.  It certainly is a buyer's market right now, so you could likely find another plane in better condition if you keep looking.  It is just a matter of time, patience, and logistics...

[FlyJose]

the plane showed up at the mechanic (well respected mooney expert) with the as promised "fresh annual", however the mech stated that the oil was not even changed. I was kind of expecing that from reading here about paper annuals, etc so I had instructed my mech to go over it with a fine tooth comb, and so far he has found about 15,000 worth of maintenance at which point he stopped and called to me consider stopping there giving the $$ found so far...avionics, engine and paint are exellent in fact way way above average...it is just frustrating to go from "this is a great plane, pre buy will be in and out" to "give us a written estimate and lets talk about price" if i wanted a project plane thats what i would be looking for in the first place, I understand it is an old,used plane and it will have some issues, but not this major

[GeorgePerry]

KSMooniac makes some very good points...Just because your mech finds a few "dinks" doesn't mean the deal is dead.  But in this case my advice to you is TRUST YOUR GUT. 

A Harvard Business School professor once told me that "Strategic decisions are much more about deciding what not to do than choosing what to do."   Food for thought...

[KSMooniac]

I'd like to see the squawk list, and then offer more detailed advice.  If you like the engine, avionics, and paint, then there really can't be too many trouble spots that are impossible to rectify, IMO!  If you could point to an ad or otherwise list specifics, especially the squawks, then we could probably give you a better idea of what to consider.  If you like the cosmetics and especially the panel, then those are great starting points.  Consider that avionics & cosmetic upgrades only return 50% of the investment...you can buy a lot more plane than you can buy + upgrade on the same budget.  Fuel tanks are fixable...I'd recommend the full-meal-deal strip & seal from Willmar ($7200 & up) and George will recommend bladders.  In fact, I would perhaps rather have them discount the sale price to include that work on your schedule so you get to "baseline" the tanks for your ownership tenure and not have to hope or worry about whatever previous owners did. 

Bottom line, make sure there is no major damage history (or it is old & correctly repaired), no corrosion, and then trust your gut as George suggests.  Assuming the airframe is sound, engine is recent (with documentation AND recent use), panel has what you want...then that just leaves tanks and a lot of little items that can add up in a hurry like gear donuts, engine hoses, engine control cables, rod end bearings, etc.  The little things are easily corrected...even the tanks are easy if you take it to a good shop and can write a big check. 

[Cruiser]

Get the list and talk with the owner. So it was not as good as the owner claims. What plane is? I would be more concerned with the mechanic doing the pre-buy. Is he good enought to find all the squawks? What you really want is a clear picture of the true condition of the plane. Make the $$ adjustments and decide if it is still a good deal.

All planes need some kind of maintenance

All mooney wings leak.

So far you have not shared anything that is a deal stopper. The owner is representing his plane. I hope you are not making a purchase based on what the owner says. 

[GeorgePerry]

Lots of "if's" on this deal (1. If my A&P has found everything  2. If the sellers being honest or is "hiding" something 3. If you can negotiate a deal that compensates for known discrepancies)  MSmooniac caution about whether your A&P found everything is very insightful .  If you’re comfortable that you KNOW about all the outstanding gripes, it’s fairly easy to figure out what’ll cost to repair.  My advice, If you like the bird and want to make an offer…Base your "reduced" offer on quoted prices from a reputable place like Wilmar and then add about 10-15% for the hassle factor.

Example plane offered at $45K

Real Market value for a plane in “as advertised condition” $43K

Deduct expected repair costs $15K

Deduct the “hassle Factor” $1.5$

 

Fair market offer = $25.5

 

And yes I would recommend bladders.  I’m a big fan of the price, warranty and reliability that they provide.  I have to disagree with Cruiser – Not all Mooney’s leak.  The ones with bladders or a professionally done reseal don’t.

Also make an “as is” offer and have the work done yourself.  Don’t let the seller take care of the needed repairs.  He'll want to do this to keep the sales price close to asking and you have no way of knowing if the work was performed to your standards or expectations.  That’s a recipe for disaster.

Also – If you’re on the fence, get a second opinion.  Find anther A&P to look it over (maybe at the sellers expense) since the plane was “sort of” misrepresented.

Remember Patience will pay dividends.  Lots of fish in the sea.  If the seller is willing to make some accommodations to work with you then maybe it’s worth pursuing. If not, then skip it.

[N207LS]

Based on your comments, I would walk, make that run, away...  The single biggest red flag to me is the fact that the oil was not even changed at the annual... I would never allow that in my airplane and would wonder about lots of other things.  If that was the case at this annual, how many other annuals could have gone by without even looking at a filter for metal?  How long has this owner had the plane?  Especially seeing as the owner assured you that there would be no issues with the pre-buy.   The bottom line is that there are plently of good used Mooney's out there.  An airplane is a big investment and you should feel good about your purchase.  If your gut says no, it may be cheaper to run away now, then to get into something that you don't feel right about.  Only my opinion though...

Aaron

[KSMooniac]

At my first annual we did not change the oil either.... I had just changed it 10 hours or so prior to the annual and there was no need to do it again so soon.

[Cruiser]

Quote: GeorgePerry

[GeorgePerry]

You got me there....I should have said "Mooney's that don't leak" have been fixed at some point along the way.

[triple8s]

I know if the aux tank install is done improperly it is a very bad thing, here's why, crossover isnt in the proper location, fill the mains it runs over into the aux, but cant all go back to the mains. Ok dont fill the mains and you have less than full capacity on the mains then you fly and the fuel in the mains sloshes over into the aux's then it wont come back, sounds fun eh? The oil change issue at annual??? Use that to your advantage buy the guy a filter, take the one off the bird and cut it open,  but IMHO airframe issues, corrosion, holes drilled in places where they dont belong, mods and no paperwork??? Offer a salvage price for a static M20C display and you'll be in the ballpark. Just my opinion.

[Auburn02]

Quote: GeorgePerry

You got me there....I should have said "Mooney's that don't leak" have been fixed at some point along the way.

[KSMooniac]

The fact that the Mooney is a low wing with the landing gear attaching to the wing mean that all the ground loads get reacted through the wing structure.  Add to that the short and stiff landing gear with rubber donuts instead of oleo struts and you end up with a lot more load going through the wings.  Rough landings (and bad taxiways) mean lots of force to flex those sealed joints, and eventually the sealant bond will break down and start leaking. 

Keeping the gear donuts fresh, landing smoothly, and not abusing it during taxi will go a long way towards long fuel tank life.  There are plenty of birds from the 80s that are still on their original factory sealant and don't leak...perhaps some from earlier as well. 

Cessnas with wet wings (maybe the 210 and perhaps the 177?) don't suffer from as many problems since the wing is insulated from the ground/gear loads for the most part.

[FlyJose]

well guys the deal is completely off...great plane if you can afford to spend about 20,000 after purchase. the final straw was rust in the tail...thanks for all your advise..i rather lose 2000 in travel and pre buy than ending up with 20 grand worth of needed repairs after a "fresh annual"

[N207LS]

Jose,

Consider it $2000 well spent.  I know that it can be frustrating, as I have been through the same thing before, but $2,000 now is much better than $20,000+ later.  As mentioned earlier, there are plenty of vintage Mooney's for sale at some great prices.  I saw a couple for sale in the most recent MAPA Log that sounded like good deals.    Best of luck with your search, I am confident that you will end up with a better plane.

Aaron

[Cruiser]

At the risk of being too blunt, remember you usually get what you pay for. What I mean is you can end up with quite a few $2,000 pre-buy bills if you are not careful to filter your selections first. In this market there are some seemingly "great prices" and everyone knows it is a "buyers market". It is also a time when poorly cared for, roughly treated, neglected and abused planes are mixed in the market where the prices look good.They may appear to be great deals until you start looking hard. 

IF you focus on the cheapest in the list, you may spend a few $2,000 pre-buys and get VERY discouraged.

[GeorgePerry]

One way to protect yourself from this type of situation is look at the paperwork first.  Have the owner scan and email the last 10 annuals, along with all the log book entries and reciepts for everything that's been done by way of maintenance.  You can easily tell if an owner took pride in the bird by the stack of reciepts for things that were fixed or maintained.  Ten, fifteen hundred dollar annuals in a row should be a red flag.  Also, don't spend money on plane tickets until the pre-buy is done.  A quick and dirty pre buy should not cost more than about $500 and in this case it would have saved you time and money....Better yet have the seller bring the bird to you.  If it isn't as described then say thanks but no thanks and your not out a dime.  If a seller isn't willing to bring the plane to you,(for the price of gas) then the plane probably isn't worth buying.

 

 

[Lood]

You did the right thing.

I bought my Mooney a little more thatn a year ago. I couldn't get financing so I had to put down the total amount -once off. Because of this, I couldn't afford the extra R10k for a pre-purchase and decided to take the chance. I was lucky twice in the past so why not. Well this time, it was indeed 3rd time unlucky. The first annual cost me R100k! I was shocked to such an extend that I wanted to get rid of the Mooney immediately. Well, luckily no one bought it and today I have a snag free Mooney in near perfect shape. If I took the plunge then, I would have saved R100k, but I suppose that's the way we learn - the hard way. Luckily it won't happen to me again - never.

When I buy my next Mooney, I WILL have it annualled by my AME. Anything that comes out on top of the annual will be for the sellers acount or he/ she will have to deduct it from the selling price. That or no deal.

[mohawk]

There are good deals out there, I just bought a F mdl resealed tanks, 500 eng 3000 A/F auto pilot ect for 35K

[jwilkins]

Quote: mohawk

There are good deals out there, I just bought a F mdl resealed tanks, 500 eng 3000 A/F auto pilot ect for 35K