Almost a Dead Stick Witness

[jonhop]

Crazy that I was almost a witness to the dreaded 180 turn to back to the airport after power loss on takeoff this evening... Fortunately, the plane produced partial power during the maneuver. Here's the story. After starting up after a visit with my fiancee' in French Valley--F70--I announced my taxi intentions to go get some fuel. The other airplane--a Cessna 172--was conducting/finishing a high speed taxi and when I heard that he had no brakes when exiting the runway. I came to a stop and let him have as much room as needed, as we would have collided, if I hadn't given way. I followed him over to the fuel farm that just happened to be close to a gaggle of onlookers and probably his A&P. After waiting for a Baron to fill-up, I taxied to the pump and as I was getting out. The 172 taxied by on the way to runway 18. I'm not sure how he fixed the brakes that fast but who am I to judge. After fueling, I started up and commenced to taxi. Before I could get very far, I heard over the radio "French Valley, I've lost power and I'm returning to the runway." That was followed by someone on frequency, to clear the runway and taxiways. I held my position and broke out the phone to record and as I was doing that the pilot announced that he now had partial power. He made an uneventful landing on 36 thank goodness... After seeing that he was taxiing back towards me, I turned down a row of planes, as to separate us. Sorry parked planes but I need some kind of shield as we crossed each others tracks.

All I can say is that witnessing this event was crazy and sobering at the same time. I had an uneventful flight home but I was mentally on edge until I pulled off the runway...

Sorry for the blurry picture, it came from video that was rotated 90°.

[Bartman]

I am glad to hear nobody was hurt

However, the 172 driver has two potentially lethal issues back to back but no bent metal.  Maybe I am just overly suspicious, but either that's a coincidence, or something smells fishy.  

Again, glad nobody was hurt.

[jonhop]

5 hours ago, Bartman said:

I am glad to hear nobody was hurt

However, the 172 driver has two potentially lethal issues back to back but no bent metal.  Maybe I am just overly suspicious, but either that's a coincidence, or something smells fishy.  

Again, glad nobody was hurt.

 Agreed... At any rate, I am very happy that he landed safely...

[carusoam]

Somebody looks out for newbies and innocents.

There are two buckets, luck and experience.

Things that come to mind,

-a-

[DaV8or]

I don't get it. The implication here is the one should never try to return to the airport in the event of an engine out because it is crazy. Is that so? The altitude that this Cessna was at when he started his turn is not given, so I don't know how to judge this decision, but given enough altitude, I see no problem with returning to the airport.

[Skates97]

54 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

I don't get it. The implication here is the one should never try to return to the airport in the event of an engine out because it is crazy. Is that so? The altitude that this Cessna was at when he started his turn is not given, so I don't know how to judge this decision, but given enough altitude, I see no problem with returning to the airport.

Just a low time guy here but we did this multiple times in the Cherokee when I was training. Climbing out, get between 500-600' AGL and a decent headwind on departure, and the instructor pulled power and I made a turn back to land. Push the nose over, best glide speed, don't bank too much, stay coordinated, always had plenty of room to make the landing. It is going to depend upon the plane, the winds, the airport/surrounding areas, and your altitude. Before every flight he had me talk through our abort procedure for different stages of the takeoff. If we had just lifted off and there was still enough runway left then try to settle back down on it (we were on 4,800' or 7,000' runways), if just departing we were going into the fields straight ahead, if we had 500'+ AGL we would try to turn back and if we ran out of space would land in the fields to the south of the airport. I guess the moral of my training story is always make an abort plan for the current airport and conditions so you don't have to decide "on the fly." (No pun intended)

[Bartman]

3 hours ago, DaV8or said:

I don't get it. The implication here is the one should never try to return to the airport in the event of an engine out because it is crazy. Is that so? The altitude that this Cessna was at when he started his turn is not given, so I don't know how to judge this decision, but given enough altitude, I see no problem with returning to the airport.

Ok so I'm just gonna "say it out loud" so there is no ambiguity over my thoughts. I'm not sure there was a problem with the brakes OR the engine.

The only thing I am convinced of is that the OP kept his distance away from this guy, and I think that was a very wise decision. 

[DaV8or]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Just a low time guy here but we did this multiple times in the Cherokee when I was training. Climbing out, get between 500-600' AGL and a decent headwind on departure, and the instructor pulled power and I made a turn back to land. Push the nose over, best glide speed, don't bank too much, stay coordinated, always had plenty of room to make the landing. It is going to depend upon the plane, the winds, the airport/surrounding areas, and your altitude. Before every flight he had me talk through our abort procedure for different stages of the takeoff. If we had just lifted off and there was still enough runway left then try to settle back down on it (we were on 4,800' or 7,000' runways), if just departing we were going into the fields straight ahead, if we had 500'+ AGL we would try to turn back and if we ran out of space would land in the fields to the south of the airport. I guess the moral of my training story is always make an abort plan for the current airport and conditions so you don't have to decide "on the fly." (No pun intended)

Yep. Pretty much how I was taught and how I plan. I think that those that get in trouble with the "impossible" turn do so because they panic and start the turn before they have nosed over and re-trimmed for best glide while going forward. I have never been in that situation with dead motor on departure and so I can't really cast judgment on those that have tried and failed. The urge to turn back as soon as possible must be very strong. I just hope that if it happens to me someday, that I have my wits collected enough to prepare the plane for the turn first, rather than just jerking it over.

[Guest]

Is landing downwind with a tailwind really better than landing into wind with the slowest possible groundspeed?  So far I've only made this decision once, so I landed with a crosswind on the cross runway.

Clarence

[jonhop]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Is landing downwind with a tailwind really better than landing into wind with the slowest possible groundspeed?  So far I've only made this decision once, so I landed with a crosswind on the cross runway.

Clarence

Clarence,

Good question... I think it depends on what you have to work with... F70 is 6000' long with plowed fields to the east and west and industrial/commercial development to the south and north, so I think the environment factors into an extremely fast decision making exercise... IMHO, 6000' hardly factors into a light airplane's landing and roll-out capability--even without brakes--with a tail wind. At any rate, I'm glad the pilot and plane survived and lived to fly another day--hopefully not in my vicinity of course...

[MyNameIsNobody]

Hey, we were ALL noobs at one point.  I remember flying local in a club 172 on a strip I do NOT take my Mooney into.  Not because I can't...but because it is a narrow short runway just south of a Class C airport.  Grass strip between tall trees on north end is used as a runway for taildraggers...Anyway, daughter and I take off to south (favoring wind) and are doing T.O's and landings in pattern.  A taildragger jumps in landing opposite direction on grass....It really messed me up.  I proceeded to come up "short" on three landings in a row...short meant landing on the grass...(never done that at time) and so I kept adding power and going around.  I finally landed the plane after third go around and the senior airport contact coming on radio and saying "If you need to go north to land do so"...I look back at that and go "Good Grief"...What a Noob...

Glad you stayed clear of the guy and that he didn't bend metal or himself.  Hopefully he "learned" from the experiences...

[bonal]

Not to often I can add real experience to a topic, hear goes. A few years ago before my Mooney days my wife and I were departing home in our C150 full fuel in other words max gross. Leaving 28 at about 300 feet just as the runway disappeared under the nose the engine dropped a cylinder and began shaking violently. What happened next was very interesting I immediately pushed the nose down and reduced power mixture was already full in and fuel is on off so nothing to do there. The forward options from 28 are not great I began a gentle turn to the left as I announced on the CTAF my situation and intentions to land on 10.  The most I could get out of the engine was about 1800rpm we were losing about a 100 fpm at that setting. Of course with the Cessna as soon as you drop a wing you lose site of the runway so I concentrate on the heading and airspeed. The interesting thing is 28 is a right pattern and I turned left the opposite of what I would be more accustomed to. I'm not sure but I think I was considering  the normal cross wind which is from the left and wanted to use it to help me keep the runway closer. Calling this a 180 degree turn is not correct with a single runway you have to make about a 200 plus degree turn followed by a 40 or so degree turn in the opposite direction. Doing all of this with out being able to see the runway (not unusual for you IFR guys) well as I rolled out of the right bank was lined up perfect for 10 and made a perfect landing. My wife said she was about to panic but looked over at me and saw me flying the airplane as though all was under control. I can tell you those trees under us were getting awful tall. Could I have made the same outcome with a complete engine out I doubt it. Would I have attempted it honestly I don't know. During the entire event I never felt the urge to pull up to try to stay up. My attention was on so many different things happening all at once. The best part was my A&P was outside his house that we flew right over with the engine backfiring and sputtering the whole time. He met us on the ramp as we shut down and shook my hand and called me the best pilot ever. Perhaps at that moment I was. We never know how we are going to react when the real thing happens. For me at least this time it went well.

[Andy95W]

Good thing you had your AOA to keep you from stalling!

Nice job!  I hope I do as well if it ever happens to me.