Starting problem on M20J

[NotarPilot]

Here's an issue I had recently with my 1978 J.

Background on airplane equipment: Sky-tec starter installed in 1998. Plane power alternator installed about 2 years ago along with a new Zeftronics VR at the same time. Concorde battery was installed in mid 2015. Battery is always kept on a Battery Minder while parked in the hangar.

This morning I go to start my plane. I turn on the Master and the glareshield lights come on, gyro starts winding up and everything seems normal. When I turn the ignition and push in to engage the starter I get nothing. No noise, no click, no prop movement, nada. I try this a couple more times and the prop moved a tiny bit once then when I try it again it finally starts turning and I get the engine started. However, I feared whether or not I could get the engine started later in the day when I needed to get home.

Once I reached my destination I shut the engine off and engage the starter again just to see if it will turn. The starter engaged and turned the prop at a healthy rate looking very normal. 

Any ideas on what the issue might be? My first thought is the contacts in the ignition switch might not be making full contact and might need to be replaced. Second thought is possibly the starter relay going out. 

[Shadrach]

Just now, NotarPilot said:

Here's an issue I had recently with my 1978 J.

Background on airplane equipment: Sky-tec starter installed in 1998. Plane power alternator installed about 2 years ago along with a new Zeftronics VR at the same time. Concorde battery was installed in mid 2015. Battery is always kept on a Battery Minder while parked in the hangar.

This morning I go to start my plane. I turn on the Master and the glareshield lights come on, gyro starts winding up and everything seems normal. When I turn the ignition and push in to engage the starter I get nothing. No noise, no click, no prop movement, nada. I try this a couple more times and the prop moved a tiny bit once then when I try it again it finally starts turning and I get the engine started. However, I feared whether or not I could get the engine started later in the day when I needed to get home.

Once I reached my destination I shut the engine off and engage the starter again just to see if it will turn. The starter engaged and turned the prop at a healthy rate looking very normal. 

Any ideas on what the issue might be? My first thought is the contacts in the ignition switch might not be making full contact and might need to be replaced. Second thought is possibly the starter relay going out. 

 Check the leads to the starter, make sure all ground straps are secure. If you've got full voltage to the starter, then it's time to call Skytec. That starter doesn't owe you much after 18years.

[BillC]

Assuming you have the original Bendix starter switch, try this. Otherwise, check battery ground for good contact. Starter relay is also a possibility.

 

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/AOCADSearch/C14960A415D956BD86256E520053A53E?OpenDocument

Edited January 19, 2016 by BillC

[capthaak]

I had to replace the mag switch with a new one, and then that one went bad in a few hours. Third switch, no problems.

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[N201MKTurbo]

Could you hear the starter relay clicking when you hit the starter?

[N201MKTurbo]

If you are a CB like me, you can easily clean the contacts in the switch if that is what it is.

[NotarPilot]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Could you hear the starter relay clicking when you hit the starter?

No, I didn't hear anything... And I wasn't even wearing my Bose A20. 

I appreciate the input. I have some good ideas where to look. Thanks everyone.

[Guest]

Sky Tec has a nice troubleshooting flow chart on their website.

Clarence

[NotarPilot]

Thanks Clarence. Does anyone know if Sky-tec starters are overhaul-able or do you just get a new one and toss the old one?

[N201MKTurbo]

If there was no click from the starter relay, it's probably not the starter.

[Oldguy]

When my J had this problem, it ended up being a good cleaning and re-seating of the connectors on the starter switch solved it.

On a separate note, I did have a SkyTec starter have an internal nut come loose and intermittently put the starter in a bind when I tried to start, but SkyTec swapped the started out with no problems.

Best of luck on a CB solution.

[NotarPilot]

I explained the issue to my mechanic along with the age of the starter (18 years) and he seems to think its the starter. He says the Sky-Tecs usually don't last that long. The one thing that has me a little puzzled is the fact that when I engage the starter right after shut down it turns strong with no issue. Could this be that there's less resistance to turn the prop when the engine is hot?

We plan to trouble shoot it when the engine is cold.

[Shadrach]

On January 20, 2016 at 3:15 AM, NotarPilot said:

I explained the issue to my mechanic along with the age of the starter (18 years) and he seems to think its the starter. He says the Sky-Tecs usually don't last that long. The one thing that has me a little puzzled is the fact that when I engage the starter right after shut down it turns strong with no issue. Could this be that there's less resistance to turn the prop when the engine is hot?

We plan to trouble shoot it when the engine is cold.

It is possible this is just an intermittent short.  While an 18 yr old Skytec might not owe you anything, that does not mean it has necessarily failed. Clean and seat all of the connections.  Heat causes metal to expand which may be solving your intermittent short. Heat also causes the resistance of a conductor to increase. So in theory, your starter should be getting more current when it is cold.  Verify continuity on all connectors and clean the grounds before you let a mechanic just throw a new starter in it. Be thankful you're in Long Beach.  It's 18º here and my hangar is uninsulated.  Looks like it might hit 33º tomorrow which will be nice right before the big blizzard on Fri and Sat...  

Edited January 23, 2016 by Shadrach

[NotarPilot]

I appreciate the info. I'll look into that. You could be right. I started it up this evening for my flight home and it started up fine. I appreciate all of the comments submitted. Thanks everyone.

[NotarPilot]

My 337 shows the Sky-Tec p/n 149-12-LS. Does anyone know if that's the same as p/n 149-NL listed on the Spruce website? I'm wondering if that's compatible with my IO-360A1B6D.

[Shadrach]

Just call Skytec directly. Their customer service is top notch. They'll discuss different options, benefits and pricing.

[NotarPilot]

48 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Just call Skytec directly. Their customer service is top notch. They'll discuss different options, benefits and pricing.

Will do, thanks Ross.

[Marauder]

My 337 shows the Sky-Tec p/n 149-12-LS. Does anyone know if that's the same as p/n 149-NL listed on the Spruce website? I'm wondering if that's compatible with my IO-360A1B6D.

If I am not mistaken the LS is the the lightweight version and the NL is the one that has a better reliability history. I researched both when my starter was giving me issues. I was able to get mine working and never purchased but my mechanic was coaching me to go with the NL version if I did.

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[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

If I am not mistaken the LS is the the lightweight version and the NL is the one that has a better reliability history. I researched both when my starter was giving me issues. I was able to get mine working and never purchased but my mechanic was coaching me to go with the NL version if I did.

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"The NL is the one that has better reliability" he says to the guy that ran an LS for 18 years...

Edited January 24, 2016 by Shadrach

[carqwik]

Just had this same thing happen today in a M20J....a friend's plane at KDVT.  Same thing...primed great, all lights working, turn the key...dead.  Acted as if the battery was shot...  He had me get out and jiggle the prop.  Next attempt...nearly instant start.  Go figure.  Next start after an interesting lunch in Payson...started right up.  No jiggle needed.

[Shadrach]

45 minutes ago, carqwik said:

Just had this same thing happen today in a M20J....a friend's plane at KDVT.  Same thing...primed great, all lights working, turn the key...dead.  Acted as if the battery was shot...  He had me get out and jiggle the prop.  Next attempt...nearly instant start.  Go figure.  Next start after an interesting lunch in Payson...started right up.  No jiggle needed.

Are you sure you guys weren't flying a 50 year old British sports car?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Shadrach

[NotarPilot]

10 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Just call Skytec directly. Their customer service is top notch. They'll discuss different options, benefits and pricing.

I actually found the info on their website.

Starter compatibility chart

[carqwik]

Nope, it was a good ol' Mooney.  The interesting thing about the lunch in Payson was that a Cessna Skyhawk with 210hp engine (it said so right on the side of the engine cowl) was parked next to the Mooney.  At the restaurant we met the owner of the Cessna and his 23 year old son who was working on one of his ratings...turns out that plane owner is a retired corporate pilot who mostly flew for a large Mexican company and now works for one of the flight sim companies as a Falcon instructor.  He was telling us...as we all had lunch together...that his favorite plane was the Lockheed Jetstar.  Said it would fly exactly where you pointed it and was the easiest of all the jets he's flown to land.  The Pratt-engined Jetstar carried 18,000 lbs of fuel and burned 8,500 lbs in the first hour.  (That's about 1,250 gallons!!) 

FMI on the Jetstar: https://blog.globalair.com/post/Business-Aviation-Industry-Focus-Lockheed-JetStar.aspx

 

[N201MKTurbo]

The 210 HP Hawk XP is just a paperwork STC to raise the maximum RPM to 2800. 

Before I bought my first mooney I flew a rented Hawk XP quite a lot out of Denver to many destinations in the mountains. I think it is my favorite Cessna.

[wishboneash]

Had the same problem this morning. New Concorde battery which checked out OK. When turning the ignition voltage drops to 11.7V, so something is drawing heavy current. Heard buzzing sound coming from the engine area, but starter pinion would not move to engage with prop gearing and no clicks from starter. Didn't get time to remove lower cowling and check. If the relay is bad, the current draw should be small and there should not be a voltage drop, right? Engine was preheated and I turned the prop quarter turn and tried again, no joy. Could be a resistive connection on the high-current path. Will need to debug further.