Priorities when buying a vintage Mooney

[Guest]

The 20E is a fine airframe as is. Get to know it before you start cutting aluminum. Besides the funds are best reserved until your absolutely sure what you've got. I think this is a fine looking bird as is!

 

YOU DO realize this is ALL your fault Shadrach! Thanks again my friend for all your time and advice.  : )

 The ferry pilot that flew it a short distance in WA to a private hangar fell in love with her.  I'll be flying her home next Friday.  That'll give me some time to get acquainted with her.  I don't plan on making any immediate changes. At least not until I've put several hours in. 

[Guest]

Barcho,

Beautiful airplane. I had been watching the airplane for a while, and the price seemed reasonable for all of the equipment and apparent condition. I have no doubt you will enjoy it.

Fernando

Thank you Fernando!

[mike20papa]

Even before Russel's unfortunate death, SWTA discontinued their 201 windshield kits (I'm guessing about 5 years ago) it's how I was able to sell mine - with a transfer of the STC.  My decision not to install the kit was, in part, per the discussions I had with Russel regarding the advantages/disadvantages of the mod.

Engine controls are a safety of flight issue.  Not a windshield mod.  FAA recommends they be changed out at engine TBO.  Pain in the ass, or not.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Even before Russel's unfortunate death, SWTA discontinued their 201 windshield kits (I'm guessing about 5 years ago) it's how I was able to sell mine - with a transfer of the STC.  My decision not to install the kit was, in part, per the discussions I had with Russel regarding the advantages/disadvantages of the mod.

Engine controls are a safety of flight issue.  Not a windshield mod.  FAA recommends they be changed out at engine TBO.  Pain in the ass, or not.

So you had the Mod that allows SAME access as standard windscreen and opted to not install it.  What were these "advantages and disadvantages of which you and Russel spoke?  Not access.  Not speed increase.  Not aesthetics.

Wood wing/tail Mooney's have a super high incidence of safety of flight.  They break up and the occupants die.  Hope you have a metal tail conversion and nobody talked you out of that.  I would not fly in a wood-tailed Mooney.  I also would not convert a windshield on a '59 classic wood wing-metal tail bird.  You chose wisely.

[WardHolbrook]

 

NICE panel! You need to introduce us to the owner who did that. He is a member of "Are you crazy for spending that kind of money on a 50 year old airplane" club. Just don't tell us you bought it at an estate sale!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah, he bought it at an estate sale. The original owner died suddenly after his wife found out how much he had spent on his ratty old Mooney.

Personally, if I were in the market for an older Mooney, my "must haves" would be (In no particular order):

1. 1965 to 1967 M20E - I want fuel injection and I believe that those years were of a bit better build quality.
2. Solid maintenance history - I'm not interested in a project airplane or having to play a bunch of "catch up ball" when it comes to maintenance.
3. Low time since a "quality" major or factory remanufactured engine.
4. Very good to excellent cosmetics - paint, interior, and glass.
5. Updated panel and avionics.
6. Typical airframe mods - windshield, cowl, gap seals, etc.
7. Corrosion-free airframe.

To take an older "beater" airframe and try to bring it up to snuff is virtually guaranteed to be a loser financially. Even if someone gave you the airframe, you'd still end up spending way more that it would ever be worth. The only way it would make financial sense is if you find one with all (or at least most) of the good stuff already on the used market and let the seller take the financial hit. The problem with this is that many sellers have unrealistic expectations of what their "baby" is worth.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

Yeah, he bought it at an estate sale. The original owner died suddenly after his wife found out how much he had spent on his ratty old Mooney.

Personally, if I were in the market for an older Mooney, my "must haves" would be (In no particular order):

1. 1965 to 1967 M20E - I want fuel injection and I believe that those years were of a bit better build quality.
2. Solid maintenance history - I'm not interested in a project airplane or having to play a bunch of "catch up ball" when it comes to maintenance.
3. Low time since a "quality" major or factory remanufactured engine.
4. Very good to excellent cosmetics - paint, interior, and glass.
5. Updated panel and avionics.
6. Typical airframe mods - windshield, cowl, gap seals, etc.
7. Corrosion-free airframe.

To take an older "beater" airframe and try to bring it up to snuff is virtually guaranteed to be a loser financially. Even if someone gave you the airframe, you'd still end up spending way more that it would ever be worth. The only way it would make financial sense is if you find one with all (or at least most) of the good stuff already on the used market and let the seller take the financial hit. The problem with this is that many sellers have unrealistic expectations of what their "baby" is worth.  

1. Check

2. NOPE-Good luck finding this on a vintage Mooney.  Can be done, but NOT easy.

3. NOPE-Also tough to find.  My MAJOR mistake was "lack" of a MAJOR.

4. NOPE-Did my interior myself and had seats re-done.  One thing an owner can do along with glass.  Not easy, but a LOT cheaper to do it yourself, learn your plane's inards.

5. NOPE-Can be done on a budget.  Just use EBAY and do it icrementally...over years.  First a used GEM...Then a G3.  First left/pilt panel...THEN a digital tach, a digital MP, FF, Volts, Clock, Oil pres/Temp.  A little at a time.  THEN do right panel cut-out upgrade the electical buss, add an electical master.

6. Check.  Bougt with cowl and windscreen mod.  No gap seals yet...

7. Check.  One owner hanger queen with 1850 TT at purchase.

Finding a cream-puff is tough.  What did this buyer with the uber panel pay?  Back in 2000 E's were going for good money.  $50-55k was common.  Why would I sell my plane for less than $70k and "take a hit"?  I think BUYERS have the unrealistic expectations.  Educate yourself on what it costs to own an E configured well and well maintained inside and out.  If you don't want to pay, then expect to get a heap of financial pain instead of a high dispatch fast/efficent flying machine that has been updated to current standards for safety in a cross-country flight.  Hey Barcho get ready for a 3k+ hit for ADSB upgrade...

[Alan Fox]

I would not waste the downtime or money on the windscreen , If you consider 1 or maybe 1.5 miles per hour for 4 grand a benefit worth the cost , by all means , but in reality it is just to make it look like a J , which it is not..... That plane is f---kin gorgeous as it is , let it be .... I have owned a few Mooneys the only aerodynamic mod worth  anything is the cowl.... I know I did them all....  Think for a second ,  this guy was an aerospace engineer and spared no expence on this aircraft NONE !!!!!  I see close to a hundred grand in that airplane , and yet no Speedslope......  Think if the windscreen is sloped more , than it is longer....the benefit of the slope is tempered by the friction of the air on the longer surface..... Spend the Money on avgas and fly the crap out of that beautiful airplane !!!

[Bob_Belville]

Yeah, he bought it at an estate sale. The original owner died suddenly after his wife found out how much he had spent on his ratty old Mooney.

Personally, if I were in the market for an older Mooney, my "must haves" would be (In no particular order):

1. 1965 to 1967 M20E - I want fuel injection and I believe that those years were of a bit better build quality.
2. Solid maintenance history - I'm not interested in a project airplane or having to play a bunch of "catch up ball" when it comes to maintenance.
3. Low time since a "quality" major or factory remanufactured engine.
4. Very good to excellent cosmetics - paint, interior, and glass.
5. Updated panel and avionics.
6. Typical airframe mods - windshield, cowl, gap seals, etc.
7. Corrosion-free airframe.

To take an older "beater" airframe and try to bring it up to snuff is virtually guaranteed to be a loser financially. Even if someone gave you the airframe, you'd still end up spending way more that it would ever be worth. The only way it would make financial sense is if you find one with all (or at least most) of the good stuff already on the used market and let the seller take the financial hit. The problem with this is that many sellers have unrealistic expectations of what their "baby" is worth.  

Hum, that pretty much describes my 50 year old M20E. Including the owner's realistic expectations. If you want something for nothing, better stick to the obits and the bankruptcy filings. 

[gsxrpilot]

Hum, that pretty much describes my 50 year old M20E. Including the owner's realistic expectations. If you want something for nothing, better stick to the obits and the bankruptcy filings. 

Bob... I told Mrs Belville I've got dibs on that E when you kick the bucket!  Or if you decide to sell earlier, I'm on my way with a suitcase full of $100's.

[Bob_Belville]

Bob... I told Mrs Belville I've got dibs on that E when you kick the bucket!  Or if you decide to sell earlier, I'm on my way with a suitcase full of $100's.

I remember well. I'm being careful, hired a food taster...

[Guest]

1. Check

2. NOPE-Good luck finding this on a vintage Mooney.  Can be done, but NOT easy.

3. NOPE-Also tough to find.  My MAJOR mistake was "lack" of a MAJOR.

4. NOPE-Did my interior myself and had seats re-done.  One thing an owner can do along with glass.  Not easy, but a LOT cheaper to do it yourself, learn your plane's inards.

5. NOPE-Can be done on a budget.  Just use EBAY and do it icrementally...over years.  First a used GEM...Then a G3.  First left/pilt panel...THEN a digital tach, a digital MP, FF, Volts, Clock, Oil pres/Temp.  A little at a time.  THEN do right panel cut-out upgrade the electical buss, add an electical master.

6. Check.  Bougt with cowl and windscreen mod.  No gap seals yet...

7. Check.  One owner hanger queen with 1850 TT at purchase.

Finding a cream-puff is tough.  What did this buyer with the uber panel pay?  Back in 2000 E's were going for good money.  $50-55k was common.  Why would I sell my plane for less than $70k and "take a hit"?  I think BUYERS have the unrealistic expectations.  Educate yourself on what it costs to own an E configured well and well maintained inside and out.  If you don't want to pay, then expect to get a heap of financial pain instead of a high dispatch fast/efficent flying machine that has been updated to current standards for safety in a cross-country flight.  Hey Barcho get ready for a 3k+ hit for ADSB upgrade...

I've already spoken to Avidyne about that Nobody.  Since it already has the Avidyne TAS605 (traffic displayed on the Aspens) I will only need a $2600.00 improvement to make it completely ADSB compliant.  It's another benefit too though. Right now the XM weather that's displayed on the Aspens has a subscription through Aspen at $50.00 per month. By upgrading the system now, I can take advantage of the free weather supplied through ADSB and save the subscription price.  Pretty much pays for itself in only four years. : )

Edited November 1, 2015 by Barcho

[ryoder]

Little known fact.  I replaced my two piece with a one piece after I destroyed it trying to sand out minor imperfections.  Glad I have the one piece now but I could have done without the drama.

[WardHolbrook]

The problem with the early shortbodies is that the upper limit of their value is dictated by the prices that the earlier 201s are commanding. Sure, you can do all of the work yourself and save some money, but for many of us that's not a project that we'd want or be willing to tackle. If you end up having to do paint, interior and glass plus an engine/propeller on top of some avionics/autopilot upgrades and you'll be in 201 territory before you know it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling M20B/C/Es, but it's all too easy to find yourself upside down in one (Pun intended) if you have to do too much work to get it up to speed. That's no different than any other airplane. There are few, if any, things that you can do to an airplane that have $1 to $1 recapture when it comes time to move the airplane on. Usually it's dimes on the dollar. That why the best advise always has been and always will be to find one that's already the way you want it. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I prefer my "pain of ownership" in small doses.  It really doesn't hurt much and you end up with a more reliable, better performing , more functional bird.  Doing it yourself can be very satisfying.  I was on a budget so had zero choice in how I pursued upgrades/repairs and beautification.  I would love to have been able to 1. find an E with a panel as awesome as Barcho's and more importantly 2. Have it within my price point.  My wallet feels lighter just looking at photos of his panel.  Good for him.  AWESOME panel and a really beautiful airplane.  Can you get something like that for $50k these days?  I still have under "solid" 201 money in my plane.  I am glad I didn't spend big and did my incremental improvements. YMMV.

[WardHolbrook]

I prefer my "pain of ownership" in small doses.  It really doesn't hurt much and you end up with a more reliable, better performing , more functional bird.  Doing it yourself can be very satisfying.  I was on a budget so had zero choice in how I pursued upgrades/repairs and beautification.  I would love to have been able to 1. find an E with a panel as awesome as Barcho's and more importantly 2. Have it within my price point.  My wallet feels lighter just looking at photos of his panel.  Good for him.  AWESOME panel and a really beautiful airplane.  Can you get something like that for $50k these days?  I still have under "solid" 201 money in my plane.  I am glad I didn't spend big and did my incremental improvements. YMMV.

If you're not careful, it's pretty easy to "incrementally" put yourself upside down in your airplane over time. I had a buddy with a 172, over several years he upgraded it with a conventional gear mod, 180 hp stc, paint and interior and some Garmin stuff in the panel. When he was finished it was absolutely beautiful, but in spite of all the mods, it was still an older C-172 and he could have purchased a pretty descent Cessna 180 for what he had in that airplane. I've seen the same thing many other times. I'm sure there are those here who have made the same mistake. At some point, if you want better avionics or faster you're usually better off selling and buying something better suited to your wants and needs.    

[Bob_Belville]

How's the resale value of your $40,000 car doing after 5 or 6 years?

Marauder has had his F well over 20 years. It has taken him and his family to hundreds of places and given him many hours of pleasure. A rational person might feel like the plane didn't owe him anything, certainly not to suffer no depreciation.

A brand new '66E sold for about $20,000. I bought 9249M in '77 for 18,000. I sold it in '88 for $18,000. I flew it well over 2000 in those 11 years. The paint, new engine and avionics I added were reasonable depreciation. OSISTM.

[MyNameIsNobody]

$52k Buy in

GUP & $10k (out of pocket) for new engine/prop/k doors, 1 piece belly at 1900 hours.  Under instruction.  Following an hour under hood and Flight review.  Four touch and goes and instructor pulled power on downwind.  Displaced runway.  Beautiful in flare...crunch.  Better than pre-GUP._ _ IT Happens...

New panel $10k (incremental)

Sold 1/2 plane to co-owner for $35k

Bought a Cayman S.

Life is good 600 hours post overhaul...

Costs for panel/interior/windows (our labor) and upgrades to wing leveler (Accu/Trak) (Accu-Flite) and Altitude Hold as well as tank re-seal split with co-owner...

All Brittain parts, 155, 300xl, 696 GEM 602 (now G3), Audio panel, Intercom (stereo w/music input, purchased used on EBAY

A "Free" audio alert on gear with buy-out of avionics shop...and loss of "my avionics guy" thankfully after panel ALL DONE.  He lost his job and never billed me....

How to own/and upgrade a Mooney on a shoe-string. YMMV

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I think the re-sale on my (used) Porsche in 25 years will be just fine.

Edited November 1, 2015 by MyNameIsNobody

[Hank]

I think the re-sale on my Porsche in 25 years will be just fine.

The nice thing about old cars is that eventually the price bottoms out. I'm guessing my '92 Jag convertible is worth about a third of what I paid for it in 96, which was about a third of what it sold for new. My Mooney is holding up better than that despite the market crash in '08; many plane prices are recovering, but still lower than before. 

I would never consider doing a pricey upgrade just to increase the sale value of my plane. The only reason (to me; YMMV) to sink Marauder or Bob money into my panel would be to use the hell out of it! It can be done incrementally at a higher total cost, or all at once, driven by need as things fail or as I want to increase functionality for my use. Then use it for a while and enjoy it. Sell? Eventually. Maybe.

But that is part of what's nice about ownership vs. rental, just like owning your house or renting it. It's yours, do with it whatever you want. Improve the appearance, the comfort, the usefulness as/if you want; fly it or park it; keep it up, or disappoint your neighbors and let things slide. I prefer to keep it up, fly it and upgrade when old things stop working or when something wonderful and new comes along. But I'm not jumping in the G650 bandwagon until I see how the whole ADSB thing plays out; I think it's incredibly shortsighted of the FAA to require Certified Out in the basis that we can have Portable Uncertified In as "justification" for making us buy the Out. We'll see what falls out in the next few years.

[mike20papa]

Life threatening wood wings...and oHHH...those woody tails!  Looks like someone forgot to inform this pilot!  

There are actually a lot more woody tails flying out there than you might think.  Especially when it's appreciated/understood that it's the VFR antenna opng. is what can do one in!

The A models should ALWAYS be hangared.  Otherwise..it's like buying a Steinway baby grand, and keeping it outside on your driveway and then bitching about how poorley it was designed and built.  There are characteristics about ang material that have to be dealt with.  Steinway uses spruce for the sound board not alumn. for good reason!

[Hank]

I thought there was a Mandatory conversion to wooden tails back in the 60s?

[ryoder]

I bought my Mooney for 20k and have put 12k in it but boy does it make me happy to get inside and smell new airplane smell instead of old airplane smell with a broken KX170 and leaking tanks.  

One piece window, new DG, new radio/nav, leather, plastic panels, carpet, tanks resealed, tires, spark plugs (a shame I have to include that), vacuum pump.  I figure I could probably get half those mods out of it and sell it for 26k.  But who knows.  Better than spending 400k on a new 172SP.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Highest break-up rate eclipsing the Bonanza V-Tail-Wood tail Mooney's.  Have fun.  I would not fly in one and I have read that most A&P's won't work on them...

[bonal]

Again let me congratulate you on what looks like a fantastic Mooney. Personally I never considered the resale of my airplane since I have no intention to sell it. If that day comes I will get what the market provides and move on. As for the one piece windshield debate it's mostly an esthetic choice since the speed gain is marginal I am lucky in that my glass is perfect and I happen to like the look of the 2 piece. As for access one of the big complaint people have is Moonies are tight to work on being able to remove the top panel over the avionics area makes for easy access to those items beneath. I would never install a one piece that would take that away. If for some reason I needed to replace the glass I would go back with same. Also in the event of a bird or drone strike I think the metal strut between the panels is added protection. Barcho enjoy your exceptional new machine.

[MyNameIsNobody]

That's it, I am converting back.  I am all about foiling the drone hit.  Well played sir