Emergency Descent Procedures

[John Pleisse]

You smell smoke and the area by your feet is getting really hot. You have between 90-120 seconds before you are going to be burned alive. What do you do?

Precisely the point.... I get it....but if you are going to maintain a steep, clean spiral at Vne with that kind of distraction, I'd only want to be in the plane to make sure you don't tug a little too hard on that yoke and then watch you land it. Don't start.. I'm not in the mood.

[chrisk]

A fire or an engine problem are not the only examples of a reason for an emergency decent.  The pilot of passenger might be having a heart attack, an allergic reaction, or what ever.  You want to bring the plane down quickly without risking damaging to the plane.  --Particularly if others are on board.

[jetdriven]

If a structural failure of the flaps means the wing becoming damaged then that is scary.  If it is minor damage to the flaps due to exceeding Vf - then that is expensive and bad but if the airplane is on fire - why do I care?  After all damage to the gear doors is considered structural failure due to exceeding Vle.  Or is damage due to exceeding Vf possibly more serious?

 

I have only recently begun thinking about fastest possible decent since I recently started training for a commercial, that included emergency decent procedure.  In practice, I do not want my plane to break in any way, so I will not exceed gear speed or any V-speed that I might be willing to do if there was a real emergency.  Even with gear down at 132IAS (my gear speed), and spiraling, and speed brakes out, she decends VERY fast.

 

But I don't want to make up procedures here - surely there is an FAA approved and suggested way to react to such an emergency.  Is it indeed exceed Vle but do not exceed Vf?

If one flap fails and blows up while the other stays down, then you have serious problems. Like loss of control. Better to leave them up.  Gear doors are not required for flight. David McGee told me they did certification testing on landing gear limit speeds and deployed the gear at insane speeds, which was followed by the doors departing in quick fashion, but it never damaged the plane seriously.      Beechcraft years ago used to have a recommendation to lower the gear if you lose control in IMC without regard for airspeed. It slows the plane down enough to avoid the 300+ KIAS graveyard spiral and give you a chance to recover.  Drag is key to getting down in a real life or death emergency such as fire.  Total drag squares as velocity doubles. The only thing that matters is how soon you can get it on the ground and get out. 

[aviatoreb]

If one flap fails and blows up while the other stays down, then you have serious problems. Like loss of control. Better to leave them up.  Gear doors are not required for flight. David McGee told me they did certification testing on landing gear limit speeds and deployed the gear at insane speeds, which was followed by the doors departing in quick fashion, but it never damaged the plane seriously.      Beechcraft years ago used to have a recommendation to lower the gear if you lose control in IMC without regard for airspeed. It slows the plane down enough to avoid the 300+ KIAS graveyard spiral and give you a chance to recover.  Drag is key to getting down in a real life or death emergency such as fire.  Total drag squares as velocity doubles. The only thing that matters is how soon you can get it on the ground and get out. 

 

Well argued.  Right - flaps up, gear down for emergency decent. Thanks.

[jetdriven]

rob, on 23 Oct 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

 

 

This really brings up a critical point. 4,000-6,000 fpm is great practice. But control is critical. You want to arrive straight in or 1,000 abeam without your ear drums blown and enough wits about you to get it on the ground.

 

 

I think you'd be as much in control at 210 MPH IAS as 125 MPH, its just a number after all. When you get down from your warp speed descent, level off at ~300-500 AGL, let the speed bleed down to something more normal like 80 MPH, then land ASAP.  Blown eardrums are a minor discomfort from your legs burning from fire.  The UPS plane caught on fire, 2 minutes from the time they discovered they had a problem until the control cables melted. The Spartan school 172RG, 90 seconds from the time they smelled smoke at 2500' until they landed in a field, the flames burned their legs. They couldnt even shut off the fuel because that area was on fire.   A friend of mine flying a Bellanca Super Viking taking off from MKC, at 500' AGL the plane caught fire. He shut the fuel off and stuffed it in a field a couple miles off the departure end of the runway.  When it stopped, he could hear the woman screaming in the back seat but he couldnt see her from the smoke.  he reached back and managed to grab her arm and drag her out of the plane. 

[rob]

jetdriven is exactly right: a fire could spread within minutes and as such, rate of descent is key. The idea is to get the aircraft evacuated as quickly as possible with only minor regard for where. In other emergencies such as medical issues, the idea is to get to help quickly. That means putting the plane down safety somewhere that immediate access to assistance can be found. The front door of a hospital being a tricky spot to land, I would radio ahead and have medics waiting at the nearest airport.

What's become very clear from this thread is that the FAA should consider moving the emergency descent from the commercial syllabus to the private.

[Jamie]

Would a fire extinguisher help much at all? I know some people keep them in the cockpit, but I've never understood exactly why. (I'm not saying they're not useful, but I'm not sure what to plan for with regard to size, type, etc.)

[Marauder]

Would a fire extinguisher help much at all? I know some people keep them in the cockpit, but I've never understood exactly why. (I'm not saying they're not useful, but I'm not sure what to plan for with regard to size, type, etc.)

I carry a Halon extinguisher and hope I never need to use it. If it buys you a few seconds to keep your toes from becoming s'mores, it is worth it. They are expensive though...

[carusoam]

*Covered by mooney specific training at the time of purchase.

Search for the name Bob Cabe.

This is a good discussion, And a good reminder to review the specific steps in my well written POH.

Best regards,

-a-

[aeromancfi]

EMERGENCY DESCENT

 

I agree with aviatoreb

 

If engine fire is the problem, 

Mixture:   OFF (engine quits)

Fuel Selector: OFF 

Heater Control OFF (Heat muff duct may be burned through)

Prop:  FORWARD  (Flat pitch, max drag)

 

If you have lots  (how much is lots?) of altitude to lose:

 

Roll into Spiral Dive to left (best pilot visibility) or right if need to avoid flames and smoke plume.

 

If you are low (how low is low?) Dive toward Target

 

Keep enough back pressure on yoke to stay below redline airspeed.

 

Select Target point for dead stick landing.

 

Do NOT attempt engine restart, since engine fire could re-light.  

 

Gear and flaps depending on landing site conditions.

 

Hope I never have to do it.

 

Aeroman

 

(No Factory procedure listed in my1965 M20E POH or Airplane Flight Manual) 

 

 

 

 

 

[aaronk25]

Screw it...if it's a fire I'm dropping the gear regardless off IAS let the doors rip off and I'll stick the flaps out 1/2 way at 140kts and the rest at 125 kts as I'm pretty sure they won't depart the airplane.

And point her down hill in a heck of a spiral. I'm not gonna burn in no damn airplane.

Once low full rudder opposite controls and I'm landing on what's ahead. Preferably a lake! Lifting gear back up at last sec. If it will go back up.

[Dave Marten]

Know your critical actions. Failure to know/follow emergency procedures has a much higher potential to kill you then the actual fire!

 

I will however throw the bullshit flag on what appears to a notion that with an inflight fire you have 90-120 seconds to land or death. There is no magic timer. Each situation is different.

 

While only 1% of all GA accidents are inflight fires be prepared. Know your procedures practice emergency descents.

 

You're entering arguement should not be to put yourself is such a corner as to PLAN on arriving at 300 AGL at Vne....really?

 

Secure engine via POH procedures, Gear down, Vle, descending spiral (G to keep IAS on target), level it off at 500 AGL pick your crash site and fly it all the way in!  

[jlunseth]

Apropo of our discussion on emergency descent procedures, here is a link to an excellent article on when to stop the prop from windmilling and when not to.  http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2011/February/1/Proficient-Pilot.aspx?WT.mc_sect=tips&WT.mc_id=131115eftrng

 

It is a great example, in my view, of the need to problem solve and understand all conditions rather than to have and follow a canned, predetermined strategy.  So stop the prop, except don't if you are above 7,000 AGL because the process of stopping it will temporarily reduce best glide so much that you will not make it up, and don't stop it if in IFR or about to go in IFR because you will lose vacuum not to mention alternator and instrumentation.  There are no doubt other things to think about in real life conditions, such as do I want my TKS pump to stop or not?

 

Better to understand your aircraft and weigh the variables (quickly).

[jetdriven]

Know your critical actions. Failure to know/follow emergency procedures has a much higher potential to kill you then the actual fire!

 

I will however throw the bullshit flag on what appears to a notion that with an inflight fire you have 90-120 seconds to land or death. There is no magic timer. Each situation is different.

 

While only 1% of all GA accidents are inflight fires be prepared. Know your procedures practice emergency descents.

 

You're entering arguement should not be to put yourself is such a corner as to PLAN on arriving at 300 AGL at Vne....really?

 

Secure engine via POH procedures, Gear down, Vle, descending spiral (G to keep IAS on target), level it off at 500 AGL pick your crash site and fly it all the way in!  

 

The thing about an engine failure is you have a known emergency. The engine quits and you have a stable situation which can be dealt with in time. A fire, or airframe icing can quickly intensify and get out of control in just a couple minutes.  Then you lose control of the situation, and maybe your life. If you treat any inflight fire like it can spread and be an overwhelming situation then you are better for it. It all depends on the situation, a slight burning smell may just be a wire, circuit breaker, or switch overheating.  That happened to me as a student in a 152. I smelled something burning, told approach my intentions, turned everything off and make full speed for the nearest airport. That 5 minutes was eternity.  The landing light switch melted on the backside and ruined the busbar, a couple adjacent switches, and plenty of wire.  It could have spread uncontrollably.

 

To me it seems like immediate, positive, and best effort to deal with it might be overkill, but at least if it worsens you are a lot closer to a landing than would have been had you wasted time troubleshooting, flipping through checklists, or slowing to flap speed.

 

In the Spartan 172RG accident, the airplane was on fire in the cockpit in 30 seconds.

Jim H.'s Bellanca Viking was on the ground in less than one minute but the smoke was overwhelming and he couldnt see anything.

Valujet 592 crashed 4 minutes after the first sign of a fire.

In the UPS 747 fire and crash, the control cables melted 2 minutes after the first sign of trouble.

[nels]

Good info here. I've been concerned about such a problem but wasn't certain about what to do. The one thing I don't remember anyone mentioning is that the door needs to ne unlatched prior to the rough landing.

[Dave Marten]

Critical Actions - I'm not talking solely about fires here rather correctly diagnosing the problem while flying the airplane is critical. WRT fires distinguishing between electric and engine is paramount. IE - an electrical fire does not automatically equate to an emergency descent

 

Inflight fires demand quick response, but I'm raising the BS flag on the notion that you only have 120 seconds to live - BS!

 

Open your MAPASafety hymnals to section 9 -  Mooney in a wings level emergency descent will achieve a 2000 FPM descent using EITHER Vle (gear down flaps up) or Vne (clean). Pick your poison. Maneuver using G to increase descent rate (descending spiral), but taper with flight conditions.

 

My plan for an emergency descent is Vle (gear down, flaps up). The configuration is far more stable and well suited for a night/IMC situation.

 

Planning a Vne dive at night/IMC and hoping to drop out of the bottom of the WX with enough time to setup for a landing - NO WAY.

 

When would I deviate from the Vle emergency descent choice? When I'm willing to trade in some VVI in order to cover a greater horizontal distance in which case I will use a low-pitch, gear-up descent at less then Vne to reach a suitable landing point. This is not a spiral dive but a snap the nose direct to-and-go (mash the nearest button on the box and GO - NOW)!

[jlunseth]

One checklist item I learned about recently, to try in the event of an unexplained engine out (no hole in the cowling from a piston blowing through) is switching the mag. switch from "Both" to one mag.  There is an AD on the Bendix switch in my aircraft and probably in other Mooneys.  Switching to single mag. mode may convince the engine to operate if the mag switch has failed.

[Hondo]

Looks like there are two issues here, fire and emergency descent. If you have an engine fire, you need to get it out quickly.

 

Cabin vent and heat  - Forward to keep smoke and heat out of the cabin.

Mixture - AFT

Throttle - AFT

Fuel selector - OFF

Ignition switch - OFF

Gear - Down  If you suspect an electrical fire turn off the Master switch and put gear down manually

Master switch - OFF

Airspeed - Increase to extinguish fire

Do not attempt restart

Find nearby airport or landing spot

Plan descent if you need a spiral limit bank to 45 degrees and limit speed to about 140, faster if you have to but descending from the bottom of a cloud at 6000 FPM may not allow recovery (Descent is the most deadly phase of flight for Mooney pilots in normal operations - over half of all fatalities)

Land into wind as slow as possible

Open door prior to touchdown/impact

[phecksel]

Gear down, Full Flaps, Pitch up to approach speed, full right rudder, left aliron to maintain wings level, pitch down to max flap/gear speed.  Be prepared for some ear popping descents, it's comes down faster than a rock.