smccray

While agree with your conclusion, the difference between the airframes isnt as great as you would think. The drag coefficients are close- see this link:http://mooneyland.com/why-mooney/ (drag coefficients copied at the bottom of this post). I believe the data in those tables is likely best case scenario for each airframe. In the real world, the V35s are all at least 40 years old, most of the K models are 30+ years old. I suspect age and changes to the airframes would make real world differences pretty close with an edge to the M20 airframe. Part of the lower fuel burn of the M20 is the slower speed. Slowing down yields greater efficiency. What I haven’t seen, but I do suspect would be pretty close, is the BSFC of the engine that would yield comparable HP. I suspect the WWIII is a more efficient power plant than the TSIO 360, but I may be wrong. The V35 would need a little extra HP to match the true air speed of the M20K, but I doubt the real world difference is very large. Parasite Drag Coefficients & Flat Plat Area Aircraft CDP Flat Plate Area (sq. ft.) Mooney 201 0.017 2.81 Beech Bonanza 0.019 3.47 Piper Arrow 0.027 4.64 Cessna 182 0.031 5.27 Beech Sierra 0.034 5.02 Piper Warrior 0.034 5.83 Cessna 172 0.036 6.25 Cessna 152 0.038 6.14 Beech Skipper 0.049 6.36 Piper Tomahawk 0.054 6.64

I believe the upgrade is $50-60k. Add another 15-20 for tip tanks, $10k for onboard oxygen. Cheaper to buy a plane with it already done, but the good ones are rare. Mine never hit the market- I bought it (broker assisted) from a couple upgrading to a TBM.

Doesn’t get any more efficient than the Mooney airframe. I find the beech more comfortable than my old J, that that’s personal preference. Both companies make fantastic airplanes!

Deal. Looks like right at 5 hrs flight time non stop, landing with 14 gallons. That’s right at max range no wind. 190 ktas at 170 and 90 gallons of fuel. edit- wait- I don’t have to take my wife and daughters right? That would be at least 2 stops…

Let’s race. 700 lb load, 500 mile course I’m a fan of any plane with wings. I would look at long bodies or bonanzas- whatever sort you like!

Yup....

WW3. I'll push as much fuel through the engine as I can, and if it's cold I've seen 17 GPH, but down here in TX I generally can't push the 17.5 GPH I've heard is possible. There's a photo out there of of what I assume will be the WWII 4. Nice to see ongoing support/development of the system.

My TN A36 runs 180 ktas on 16.5 GPH at 12K ft MSL. 1350 lbs useful load with plenty of room in the back for my wife and girls to stretch out. I've only owned the Bo for just under 2 years, but maintenance hasn't been significantly different. I expect maintenance on the A36 to be higher than my old J, but just looking at systems, it should be higher. Yes, fuel efficiency definitely favors the Mooney. However, someone over at beechtalk said it- the best airplane for your mission is the one your wife likes... and my wife wanted something a little bigger. C'est la vie... The Bo is a fantastic airplane. Some of the criticisms are that it's a dog when it's hot and heavy- and it is. However, power to weight of a 4000 lb A36 (300/4000=0.075) still compares well to a 2900 lb J (200/2900=.069). The J was also a dog taking off in the Texas heat, but at least now I have air conditioning :). However, it's a great airplane once you build speed- just like the mid body Mooneys, except bigger :).

Now you’ve done it...

Perhaps your insurance cost is lower in that scenario, but after you factor in the transaction cost, even if you jump strait to the $3k per year policy, you come out way behind compared to paying the higher year one for the Mooney. You can’t win! It’s a question of lower cost up front vs a lower overall cost. who knows what happens to the insurance market over the next few years, but I’ll bet you still pay a premium (maybe a smaller premium with a few more hours) for zero RG time. If you really want to ruin your math, compare your estimated fuel bill of a M20J vs a 182 or any of the other planes you would be looking at. Make sure you compare cost per mile not cost per hour. 150 ktas @ 9gph vs 135 ktas on 14? It doesn’t get much better than a J model balancing operating cost against airframe age. Let us know when you start shopping for a plane born in Kerville...

@Parker_Woodruffcan comment on insurance (writes a lot of Mooneys). I transitioned to a J at 90 hrs total time. 15 hrs transition training, 10 solo before passengers. Cost was reasonable- maybe $3500 on a $100K plane? That was ~10 years ago and things have changed, so.. ask someone smarter than me! The Mooney was a lot of airplane.

If tower or approach had cleared me for a "practice RNAV 9, no separation services provided, maintain VFR, on the missed fly runway heading", I would fly the runway heading of runway 09. I wouldn't think twice about that decision until I heard back from the tower. File the get out of jail with the FAA, please definitely talk to the tower supervisor, and please report back here. We might learn something!

There are others that are more familiar than me, but I wouldn’t be too concerned with the airspace. Plan CEW, continue east, and be in your game changing frequencies. The controllers are great. East of the panhandle airspace, I would just stay near the coast line- pick your navaids. Should be an easy flight (even for an Aggie ) albeit a long flight with family. I would file, but I tend to file every flight.

A J and a Debonair with an IO-470K engine are going to very close to the same economics as far as fuel cost. The 4 cylinder engine is likely a little cheaper than 6, but variances in airframes is likely going to be more significant than variances between models. Good luck with your search!

Most speed comparisons I've seen lead me to believe the Bravo is 5-10 knots faster at similar altitudes. In the real world, that's close enough to the same block times that the difference doesn't matter much except for bragging rights on the ground (which let's face it- it matters ). Even if I'm wrong and the Bo is faster than the Bravo, it's not enough faster to matter. My bird does 195 ktas in the mid teens when light (full fuel, minimal bags). 12K ft I see ~180 ktas. I assume if I climb up to class A airspace she's even faster, but 17.5 has been adequate, and I'm sensitive to altitude. I prefer to stay out of class A airspace. Agree. I'm a fan of anything with wings.

Paging @KSMooniac. Not sure if that's the same system Scott is familiar with, but I'd bet he can help with this. I can't help at all with the system, but I am familiar with fuel pump issues with a TN system. I had fuel vaporization issues last summer with my bird climbing out of Houston in the summer traced back to an old fuel boost pump that needed more pressure. Good engine monitoring made it a non issue, but the fuel system is a big deal here.

I just looked- there are a couple late 60s debs on controller. That’s the era when they were sold with an IO-470K, 225hp engine. Many will have an IO-470N (260HP) conversion. Variants with these engines are more likely to be in your budget range.

Budget as a driver makes sense. The bonanza variants have gone up in the last couple years. Said much better (and said directly) here. Cross shopping the Sierra and the E model doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. A Mooney is a traveling airplane built around efficiency. As a local flyer, the Sierra will be more comfortable. That’s not to say that you can’t sight see in an E model and travel in a Sierra, but these two airplanes excel in different areas. The BE33 with the small engine is the closest equivalent Beech to an E/F/J model Mooney. I agree with Blue Highway Flyer- a 182 would be a great choice. A lot of models to buy, more liquid market when you want to sell.

Why a Sierra? Have you considered a BE33 with an IO470K engine?

If your question is, "Is a Bravo a good airplane?" the answer is undoubtedly yes. That's the the question you're getting here. A Mooney is a pilot's airplane and not doubt it's a solid choice. If you're really asking why not buy a bravo, it's because there are other airframes that offer similar capability. If you want a turbo charged longbody Mooney, pick your price point. If you want a turbo charged single, expand and look at a TR182, turbo SR22, or even a Columbia400. Then expand a bit and look at a T210, TN Bonanza, perhaps even an early Piper Malibu. Early bravos are still capable, but an increasing percentage of aircraft value is in the panel versus the airframe. Being the fastest piston single has advantages, but the Bravo isn't the fastest, and it isn't the most efficient. If you're going to buy a plane and upgrade it, you're going to have more in the plane than it's worth- by a lot. If you want a speed demon, buy an early Columbia 400. It's 10 years newer, already has a glass panel, and it's a fixed gear plane so you don't have the expense of a retract- and it's 10 years newer . I'm not saying don't buy one, but you asked why not to buy one, so perhaps that's the answer. But- if you want a Bravo- buy one! I looked at them very hard and went a different direction.

And... does a PPI on the seller as much as the plane. You learn a lot about how the plane was cared for just talking to the owner.

A Bravo is going to run what- $250 / hr to run? So over 5 years @ 100 hrs a year, you've spent $125K in operating cost. The hard part- at any given time you need to be ready to drop $50-75K on a new engine if something goes badly. Don't get me wrong- every dollar counts, but you can probably get within $10K of a reasonable price for a plane if you've been watching. If you've been looking at planes in person and have an idea what you see, you can probably get even closer. Let's say you overpay by $5K. Don't get me wrong- that's terrible- but if an unexpected $5K "loss" is a show stopper, the Bravo is going to be a tough plane to own. The plane has a lot of systems, all of which need to be maintained. A cheap Bravo will probably cost $175K+, or you can buy an expensive one @ $130-140K, drop 50-75K into it and have a plane worth 160K. I was looking a while back at Bravos and found a lot of early 90s M20Ms out there. In 5 years, they will compare even more poorly to a 10-20 year younger turbo SR22. Best case scenario, you invest a bunch of money in the panel to add glass, but you still have a single door airplane that burns more fuel. The Bravo is faster... so I guess that counts for something, but not enough in my book. The value question is more complex than what the plane is worth today; what will it be worth in the future. The hard part with a Bravo is that it's a niche plane. Burn a lot of fuel, go fast, but the cabin is small and [legal] useful load is limited. Operating costs are high, and it's a very high performance plane. The buyer is someone that wants big bore turbo Mooney, can afford to operate a high performance complex airplane, but can't afford to buy a an Acclaim. That's a small market. I ran the numbers a while back- it appeared that 150 hrs per year, you could buy an Acclaim, and use the fuel savings to pay the debt service on the marginal purchase price... and fly a G1000. If you're looking at a FIKI single, that's a different game. It's a much more limited competitive market. I haven't looked in a while, but 2 yrs ago you'd be looking at $200K at the low end for a well equipped FIKI Bravo- likely $220K+. You pay your $ and you take your chances. Come on in- the water is fine!

Why do you want an appraisal? In my limited experience, VREF will not give you a complete picture. For example, installed equipment increases the value significantly. Significant deferred maintenance doesn't affect "value" much at all. Plane would appraise well but it would be a terrible plane to own. Dirty little secret is that a fair value is actually a range of values. A given Bravo is fairly priced and some number plus or minus 10%. If it's a bank, the appraisal will hit the high side. If you're a buyer, appraiser will figure out what you're looking for and price it accordingly- want to tell your wife you're getting a deal- expect the number to be high. Want a club to wield against a seller? appraiser will come in low. If you're looking for a negotiating tool, I doubt it will be all that helpful. if you're brave... post it here! I guarantee someone will say it's worth $110K. Someone else will tell you $250K.

Different strokes I suppose :). I toyed with mounting my iPad mini where you have the ipad on the right mounted. I didn't care for that location. I stuck a 796 on the copilot side and an ipad mini on the yoke. I really liked that setup. My old 205 has been gone for 2 years... I do miss that plane.

In a bag backing up the iPad mini. Normal size ipad is big for a cockpit. I have a big iPad pro, and I run Garmin Pilot on it, but I would have a hard time trying to use it in the plane.