M016576

What was the cause of your engine failure, if you don’t mind me asking? yeah, I tend to agree with you- when the engine quits unexpectedly- the challenge is different depending on the phase of flight. Takeoff, where you’re 5-7 degrees nose high, and at speeds close to Vy or Vx demand instant action to prevent stalling (or worse). And that takes altitude.

Yes- that’s the only thing on the list that seemed cheesy to me, as well. 2100 for a base annual price is not bad for a shop.

Yes- I’ve had 4 or 5 shops quote me this as well.... they all say it’s 25-30 hours to add a mfd to the PFD. either it’s a conspiracy, or they have to remake the whole wire harness. Seems short sighted to me by aspen.. particularly because they have touted their system as being “upgradable,” which in my mind translated to easily and quickly upgradable. Apparently that isn’t the case.

Does anyone know if you still need to “unlock” AoA and SV with the max displays? Or do the unlocks from our previous displays carry over to the max upgrade?

I had some days like that in the F-18... totally “normal” at the time... now I look back- I’m happy to be done with that!

The issue with this thing- and I’m bet I’m not the only one that this has happened to- if a passenger accidentally kicks the flap, and releases the top metal part when they get in- your landing gear won’t retract. if your gear does not retract when you put the handle up, check that the emergency gear handle latch is secured and in the locked down position.

If the system works, it can make perfect sense. I know the “this is how we do it in another airplane,” argument is flimsy at best, but I’ll try to do a better job describing how this concept plays out in application on my work aircraft...while I was skeptical at first- I’ve come to love not needing to see the “needles” at all times, and do see how, at a very minimum, we as GA pilots, are “missing out” on some better data processing and handling from our engine monitors. anyway- heres Displayed at all times is an icon that shows operation of the engine in some capacity that is usable to set power for what you need for the majority of flying. In the aircraft I fly that is configured this way- that’s a thrust setting, and a digital display of fuel flow. In a piston aircraft that could be %HP and fuel flow, and a LOP/ROP egt indicator scale. The point being that it’s not necessarily everything that’s possible to display- just what’s needed to set power reliably and accurately for flight. If you tap the icon, it will display everything. Tap it again, and you go back to the icon. Things that would *not need* to be displayed that could be monitored for trend data- and again, this is me spitballing- but oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel pressure, cht’s, raw egt’s. If any of those values starts to deviate or show “error”, a warning or caution can be triggered which will auto alert the pilot and pop that value up to the pilots attention. The icon could change color, a sound could play. This would certainly be at the placarded limits... but we can do better- trends can be spotted by a computer (surging, slow decay, inconsistent flows) earlier than what we see/notice as a pilot. Even if the data is displayed up in front of us all the time. when the icon starts to indicate issues- tap it and all engine parameters are displayed, with the suspect ones in inverse video, or colored red or yellow. A digital error readout could also display the words or reason for the triggered caution or warning. of its just the nesting idea that you don’t like- here’s why I brought it up: you buy a 10” primary flight display. Perhaps you don’t have a dedicated engine monitor in the panel- you intend to use the flight display to show your engine monitor information. But you need to be able to navigate and fly off of the display as well. In cruise, autopilot on- sure- display your oil pressure continuously until your hearts content- but when descending into the clouds on approach- wouldn’t the ability to replace that depiction of oil pressure with something a little more usable at the time be nice (whether that be a bigger ADI, or a navigation ribbon with waypoint or glideslope info, or whatever) not sacrificing the actual monitoring of that parameter? ultimately, I’m stuck with what you’re stuck with- a digital engine monitor that does no processing at all- not even on a basic level. It just shows the analog indications of my motor digitally and alerts me if they hit a placarded level. So I HAVE to watch it all the time. -But it could be so much more, and totally achievable right now, without extra hardware or even certification- just software mods. For example- engine monitors could have “red box” logic (show or display where the red box is in relation to your power/egt settings), predictive best fuel flows for max range and endurance, error checking... or perhaps a display that amalgamates the egt/power values into a single “bar” or “wheel” display to more easily interpret where the engine is currently operating at a glance....the list goes on. even if you aren’t ready to, or don’t agree with the idea of nesting the engine data- certainly you see that the engine monitors we’ve got have much room for improvement. What we’ve got is way better than the original needles, for sure... but I think this space has been the most overlooked for improvement in GA avionics.

So you’d rather have raw outputs to stare at on an engine monitor, as opposed to AI / algorithms that could detect problems for you in real time and also automatically ensure you’re getting peak performance out of the system? yes, I am talking about a FADEC-type software set. I know- the cost to certify something like that would probably be pretty expensive. But the technology already exists- I just wish we had a fraction of that capability in our displays. Because basically all we get is a digital display of analogue data with exceptionally rudimentary “warnings” which are just a light flashing when the sensor displays a certain value. Here’s one, for example, other than the “mike Busch” algorithm I brought up for engine health checking. Imagine if your engine monitor, which already has a GPS input/output, would alert you when you achieved your max endurance and max range fuel flow, as you executed a lean find. Then continued to update that fuel flow display/alert as it received wind data (in the form of ground speed from the GPS). I’m not talking about what the pilot “estimates” as the max endurance/max range- but the *actual* max endurance/range numbers based on your engine’s performance on that given day due to your lean find. All GPS’s display range to a ring/time/point at a current power setting based on fuel onboard and available- but why not continuously compute max range/endurance and have those numbers available, too. It could be possible to set max endurance, or max range, or max speed by selection of an auto throttle and autopilot input. No more tweaking knobs and staring at egt’s and FF’s as they ebb and flow. I too spend a ton of time eyeballing my CGR-30P. But my point is, that with modern technologies and practices, we shouldn’t necessarily have to.

Keep in mind the 440 has a nav and comm radio, as well as a WiFi and Bluetooth terminal...though... if they sold the 440 at the 175 cost point, I don’t see why anyone would ever buy a 175.... unless they were hell bent on the G3X display. I’ve contended from the start that if the 440 was priced at about $6500-$7000, and the 540 at below 10K, then garmin would have a serious threat on their hands... I think Avidyne would like to take all their market share... I just don’t think they can without taking a loss. full disclosure- I own a 440... and I wouldn’t install a 650/750 even if someone paid me to do it (hate the garmin interface).

Because you have a cgr-30 already installed. My point was that it would free up a whole bar of space on a G3X touchscreen- and would render a legacy engine monitor obsolete... for reference, I have a CGR-30P in my panel as well... but I’d rather have a “smart” engine monitor nested in a touch screen display.

That’s a very interesting idea- an aviation GPS with no screen, or a limited physical interface that primarily interfaces across a gateway to a portable.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. And yes- you’d want double redundant inputs and more sensors. I expect resistance to this idea, and lots of “well, I still want to watch it all the time...” but the fact is, that while we (as humans and pilots) believe we are capable of noticing error/erratic behaviors in a system... any system... a computer/AI that is programmed correctly will be/is superior in most all cases. And for the cases where the computer “needs help”- that would be why we have the pilot on board at all. (Inputs disagree or are erroneous, etc) for those that are still skeptical that this application would be worth anything in aviation- take a look at Mike Busch’s algorithm for uploading engine monitor data. That’s a very rudimentary display/example of what could be done, and run, in real time. A pilot could be alerted to problems that they can’t yet see, or know exist (can spalling or valve troubles, in the case of the mike Busch algorithm)

If the error checking and/or warning annunciation is present/accurate... then I don’t see why anyone *would* want their engine details displayed all the time. It would be a waste of real estate. Heres what I mean: on the top level PFD/mfd have an engine status button- whether it be HP, or throttle position or whatever. But have it color coded (green-all is running within parameters, yellow- something is out of parameters, but warrants attention, red- system failure). Then, if the button turns yellow or red, you hit it (or it auto displays) and up pops your “engine page” with all your engine data, and the suspect parameters hi-lighted. this kind of AI/functionality, if programmed correctly, could save a ton of real estate on ones panel and actually improve error detection alerting, capability and rates. of course- this technology doesn’t exist yet in general aviation. It does exist in most of the major jets out there, though... so it’s a matter of time (and money).

Interesting thought. I would love to see it, but I doubt it... mainly because garmin has always had the capability due to their line of gps’s without radios and their gouging prices. Not sure where avidyne breaks even on their units- but I’d imagine their price point would have been lower out of the gates if they had much more wiggle room. Time will tell

Hah! You caught me! I forgot what actually had started this thread! Yeah- is meant @Hank, not the OP... when I was saying OP. And like I said... not saying that is the case here- just that the thought struck me as I was reading the thread. Heck, I know I’ve been on both sides of the table on this one- pleading for help on the road, and saved by a merciful A&P... and also wondering to myself during annual time: “why the heck isn’t my plane done!” That latter thought also coming with the sound of a register ringing. $$$$. again- not saying this is the case here, just pointing out the (agnostic) thought I had.

I’m willing to bet it’s the latter. not saying this is the case with the OP... but... it’s funny how when we break on the road, we shower the A&P with praise for his help in a pinch... but when we’re in the shop and it takes longer than expected (maybe because the mechanic is fixing someone’s bird who broke, on the road), we get upset.

Very true. but you’re still “off the chart” for stall speed, which is where an indication of AoA would come in handy. skidding here, definitely a bad idea!

That’s what I was thinking- maybe a mag/electrical issue. The one time I had ice in my fuel system, the ice blocked the intake at the gascolator.... the motor wasn’t surging- it was just losing fuel pressure continuously and nothing I did helped... until I pulled the gascolator drain as a “Hail Mary”... which happened to purge the blockage and restored full pressure and power immediately. if you do think it’s fuel system blockage- a great place to start would be to take apart your gascolator and check the screen.

That shop is not the only one with that concept- I’ve had quotes from a few in this area that are clearly subscribing to that idea. I think you’re right about the ADS-B rush... not sure how it will all play out post ADS-B installs though.

The little Timmy thread! Classic mooneyspace... I love it.

I think Aspen will have to, now that these are available.... This does not bode well for them....and I'm a huge aspen fan.

Indeed- the price is about half of what I was expecting. Definitely taking a swing at Aspen-Touch screen, better looking display, bigger area... and cheaper. unless aspen reprices their “Max” displays, they are about to lose a ton of business. Looks like Garmin is finally “getting it.”

Wow

Definitely worth thinking about! Thanks- I think I might start doing that!

I need to find your A&P IA- I had a great one where I was previously... costs were typically about 2200 an annual... The MSC’s all start at about $3000 flat rate. Most major shops are about the same... it seems like the only way to find a lower rate than that is to find an independent A&P or to do an owner assist (which, honestly, is probably a better “product”). Throw in a few items like tires, a battery, a “broken widget” or two and it quickly gets over 5k. I digress... this is a different thread!