A64Pilot

Thanks, the discussion was list price, not cores etc, Just if I showed up and wanted to buy a motor, what’s asking price.

91.417 gives a list of what information is only required to be kept for one year, and then has a separate list of the information that has to be transferred at the time of sale. ‘Now any normal person keeps all the data in the form of logbooks. Reading one reg and going off of only that data can sometimes get you in trouble as there are any other regs that say other things. For example one may say that you have to keep records that show how many hours the airframe and prop and engine have accumulated, and if you destroy all of the logbooks back older than one year, how do you prove how many hours are on each, or what AD’s have been complied with and how they were complied with etc? So this discussion is about what your required to do legally, and not what would be foolish to do? On edit, I would say with the FAA paperwork always overrides physical. I’ve never had them look at the aircraft, just the records

Try selling an airplane that only has the last years logbooks and see how much value it has.

Logbooks tell a story, and they do affect the value of an airplane, while you are not required to explain why parts are replaced, it often helps to explain why unusual actions are taken. Not for normal wear items of course like light bulbs or tires or whatever. However a list of items being replaced that aren’t normal wear items like gear doors, belly panels etc of course means the aircraft was in some kind of accident, leaves a person wondering how bad the crash was, and what inspections if any were accomplished looking for hidden damage. Using my C-140 as an example, it woud have been better if instead of saying replaced right wing, the entry said replaced right wing due to ground loop,landing gear boxes, tail wheel attachment point and wing struts inspected and found OK. That explains why the wing was replaced and also shows that the other items often damaged in a ground loop were inspected and found airworthy.

Again, how do you dispose of logbook entries. I’m not talking work orders etc. ‘So are you saying cut out the pages or destroy the books? ‘What do you think missing logbooks does to the value of an airplane? I’m also pretty sure that cutting out pages will get you into trouble. Books are lost or destroyed, it happens, there is a process to reconstitute a logbook, and any newer more expensive airplane it’s a serious depreciation, the longer ago that it was, the smaller the hit. ‘This is the first entry of the logbook in my 1946 C-140.

Multiple gear extension systems aren’t often that hard to devise. ‘The Meyers 200 has three, the normal hydraulics, if the pump breaks, pump them down manually, if the hydraulic system is compromised so that there is no fluid, then each gear has an up lock reachable by the pilot, release all three and let them gravity drop and yaw the airplane until you get all three down lights. ‘The Mooney emergency extension system is applicable only for an electrical failure, it won’t work if there is any mechanical failure, excepting a motor failure. However I believe it’s not common for anyone to get hurt in a gear up and any extra systems add weight, increase complexity and I’m sure drives up costs. ‘The ARMY U-21 I worked on long ago (Beech Queen Air) had a horrible complex system with bicycle chains and gear boxes and worm gears etc. Ever heard of a Rube Goldberg contraption?

People get used to getting away with things and often sometimes believe the FAA won’t or can’t do anything. I used to try to explain to one individual who was plainly doing illegal things that the FAA is like a bear in the woods, you walk by the woods everyday and pretty soon your sure nothing will happen, but then one day, just a day like all the others the bear comes out and rips you to pieces. FSDO inspectors are Federal employees, and like most they are in all honesty, not real motivated, they most often had rather not go through all the work an enforcement action is, they had really just as soon you toe the line, unless you piss them off, then sometimes they will crucify a person. ‘Not saying all are like that, but very often when you hear of an FAA enforcement action that seems a little excessive, often there is more to the story.

How do you dispose of the logbook entries? I’m not arguing that there are types of records that don’t have to be kept, but I don’t see how you could repair a gear up without some logbook entry, one that without advanced detective work will tell you it had a gear up. ‘I’ll give a for instance, my C-140 has a logbook entry from a long time ago that says something like “Replaced right Wing” Now there may have been a work order that went into much greater detail about what replaced right wing detailed and it was likely lost or destroyed. It doesn’t take a genius to determine that the likelihood of a ground loop is there, of course it could have been something else. Personally if I had made the entry I would have said replaced right wing due to ground loop or whatever the reason was, but some don’t in an attempt to claim “no damage history” So when you see a logbook entry replacing several items that correspond with a gear up, it’s likely it had one. But I don’t know how you could repair a gear up without a few logbook entries, a bunch actually as the engine usually comes off and disassembled and reassembled and a new prop is installed

My 430 gives me a terrain alert coming into my home airfield as it’s not in the database, but I believe it doesn’t for airports in the database, but I agree a “check wheels down” would be a good alert to be able to enable.

However there is a section 2 of items required to be kept indefinitely. So unless several different log books are kept, how do you go about removing items from the logbook that are over 1 year old? Razor blade? I bet if your caught doing that I bet there is some kind of FAR about tampering with records that will get you. ‘The devil is in the detail with FAR’s. you can find many that make a statement, but don’t state there are exceptions, however exceptions exits, like the 500’ rule, which if memory serves states that helicopters are exempt, but doesn’t say anything about Ag planes, but in FAR 137 Ag planes are exempt. Same with carriage of the Airworthiness Certificate, all aircraft except an Ag plane are required to carry the original, an Ag plane isn’t, but you have to go to part 137 to find that exemption Its my belief that the requirement of maintenance of records for one year is meant to mean work orders etc, not the logbook. But as I’m no aviation lawyer, my belief and $2 may get you a cup of coffee.

The Air Tractor guys won’t even consider a turn when loaded without flaps, to the point that the manufacturer puts the flap switch on the control stick. What they are doing probably without realizing it is washing the wing out, an airplane with little washout can tip stall in a turn and that’s real bad, so by adding flap before the turn it ensures that a stall will begin inboard, where the flaps are.

By that line of logic, then any safety gesture will be negated by riskier driving habits, but safety belts and air bags, crumple zones etc haven’t been negated, but anti lock brakes were. I can’t explain it, other than to think that maybe locked brakes weren’t as unsafe and didn’t contribute all that much to accidents to begin with. Either way, the possibility exists, although many will argue, but if there is the perception of greater safety, that pilots will make riskier flights. ‘For example when I was a kid we visited Newfoundland, my Father wouldn’t make that overwater flight due to water temps and expected survival time, so we made that leg Commercial and left the 210, if he had a twin he may have taken it.

You have to be careful with stats, when I lived in Germany my neighbor told me that German’s have a saying, “Statistics are like a lady of the evening, if your paying, you get what you want” Plus many defy logic. when anti-lock brakes for cars first came out, they were hailed as a significant safety improvement, insurence companies gave discounts for anti lock brakes. ‘Fast forward a few years and the stats show no difference at all in safety in cars equipped with anti lock brakes, I can’t explain it, logically there should be fewer crashes and less injuries. Many have postulated that people know they have anti lock brakes and drive more aggressively, I don’t believe that as the average driver doesn’t know what kind of brakes they have, In 1993 when Chevy came out with the then new Camaro, according to the crash test data, it was the safest US built car in its class, a few years later when the accident statistics came out, you were more likely to be killed in a Camaro than any other US built car. Volvo’s have forever had about the best safety ststistics than any other car, and yes they are a well built safe car, but it’s the way they are driven that makes them so safe, Volvo drivers are more often in the right lane going the speed limit and driving safely and the phrase hold my beer and watch this is almost never uttered in a Volvo, but likely heard very often in a Camaro. Personally I never got my multi as I have no desire, and I know if I had one, I couldn’t afford to fly it as often as I can a single, and I like to fly. Years ago my Father bought brand new C-210, very nice airplane but as it was only him and my Mother he didn’t need a 210 and as it cost more to fly he bought a C model Mooney, and my Mother learned to pack in pillow cases as they conform to the shape of the airplane, so yes they lost baggage space and useful load, but flew more often. A friend used to fly the air show circuit in his Pitts, he learned very quickly that you could ship your clothes etc to the next Motel you were staying at, which lessens the “need” of a cargo carrying airplane, just ship the stuff your Wife bought on vacation home, and fly a smaller more efficient airplane, the cost savings of doing so far exceed any shipping charges.

Do you have a link or reference? I brought that up at breakfast and everyone threw the BS flag, but I suspect your correct. With a new 172 being a half mil, why wouldn’t 20% of that cost be engine? I can tell you that for a crop duster that the engine cost is 40% and that’s OEM cost, which is way less than you or I would pay.

A multi really comes into its own when over water or over the jungle, because a successful forced landing just isn’t possible. ‘So if you fly over a lot of inhospitable terrain, then a multi has more value than it does for someone who doesn’t and flies almost all their flights day VFR. There are situations in a multi that an engine loss isn’t as benign as it is in cruise, and you have to be on the ball then, and not everyone has been. Supposedly Lindbergh picked a single because of the likely hood of losing an engine was much less likely. I think what he could afford had a lot to do with it. Same with modern pilots. I can’t afford a twin so for me it’s a mute issue. There is an old saying and it’s that eventually all pilots end up with an airplane they can’t afford. Went to breakfast with someone moving down here, he has a Widgeon and just replaced both GO-480’s as he was over TBO on both he had to buy new cranks and cams etc. ‘I can only imagine that cost much more than my Mooney did, but for him it may have been no big deal.

I would think that substituting material means you involve a Structures DER, and I believe they have manuals that pretty much show that to maintain the same structural strength that you need to go to xx thicker material, so it’s not a real big deal, but their signature as a DER is of course what’s important. Really helps if you have a friend that’s a Structures DER as I assume to hire one you have essentially a min payment, sort of like hiring a plumber for a 2 min drain unclog, your still having to pay for his travel time and mileage etc even though the work only took two min. Personally I think a standard tubing repair IAW 43.13 as an A&P would be the way to go, and I bet that’s exactly what LASAR did. Whole lot easier I drive old cars too, just not exotic expensive ones. just old. Both of ours are 2005

It’s a very bad thing to do to an engine as it may I believe the term used is detune the crankshaft balance weights. I know that’s a possibility in a fixed pitch aircraft especially in a dive, but I thought that a constant speed props governor would help prevent that as if RPM begins to exceed the set point, the governor will add pitch to prevent an over speed. But to autorotate the prop will take pretty much a dive I thought, something most wouldn’t do. I’ve pulled the engine back on turbines and dove steeply and initially the big prop keeps the speed low, it acts like a brake, then suddenly the governor adds pitch because the prop is auto rotating and you accelerate, but it takes a pretty steep dive to do that though. Tjese are NOT our engines, but it explains what happens. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB245D Detuning Dynamic Counterweight System.pdf Then read 4(d) here https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-103.pdf I think that we are fine to leave the prop at high RPM, just don’t pull the throttle off fast and or dive the airplane, rapid changes in RPM is bad.

You may have as has been said a lower get your attention or whatever you want to call it enunciation, but your limit should be the same as the POH

I used to work at a aircraft manufacturing plant, there are a few reasons why parts prices are so high, one is that often they are run by a business person who sees parts quite frankly as a cash cow, so they have some standard mark-up that doesn’t always make sense for all parts. ‘Secondly the price is often set by how long it takes to make a part and set up, especially for anything machined takes quite awhile, so if it takes 1 hour to set up the machine and 5 min to run the part, often the time entered in the books is 1 hour and 5 min, so you price off of 1 hour and 5 min labor, but once set up you can spit out a part every 5 min, so do you make 20 which may take two years to sell or how do you do it? I used to try my darnedest to get parts priced reasonably as one of my jobs was product support, but usually wasn’t successful. I kept trying to get them to realize that they didn’t sell any parts because the prices were so high, that almost any repair procedure to include make from scratch was less expensive. Only flight controls we sold were ones with a cosmetic defect that I wouldn’t allow on a new airplane as I ran the production line as well. Those I could discount ‘We did however have a whole lot of parts price quotes, as they were needed for insurence claims, a logical person would understand that if the parts were priced reasonably that all those quotes woud be sales, but it never got through their heads. Bottom line, you teach the Dealers and maintainers other sourcing procedures for parts and repairs and you don’t sell any parts, and once weaned off of the factory, good luck getting them back For example if you price a landing gear switch at $500 and say it’s 60 days after receipt of funds for delivery, people will start searching and someone will find who you buy the switch from, because aircraft manufacturers don’t build switches and relays etc. ‘So they are killing the Goose that lays the Golden egg, but as parts sales dry up, their response is usually to increase prices to try to keep the funds coming in, but they accomplish the opposite, and you just can’t convince them otherwise

You may can, but he is correct, if it’s a primary instrument, then it’s limits have to be programmed IAW the POH and you not allowed to change them. Thet is why for example if you order an MVP-50 that you fill out a form that has all of the limits and it’s sent pre-programmed for a Certified aircraft. ‘For an experimental I believe they may send you one with a level 1 password that allows you to modify all of the programming. One thing that gets annoying on these types of instruments is there is no buffer, for example my takeoff RPM is 2700, the max allowable RPM is 2700, 2701 is an over speed and is required to be enunciated as such, so you have two choices, ignore the over speed warnings that will occur often, or turn your Prop RPM down and lose some HP so that the prop never exceeds 2700. I believe more modern aircraft usually have a yellow band prior to the redline, but back in the day when just dial instruments were all there was, it was common for 1 RPM to be the difference between continues operation, and an exceedence, because it was up to the pilot to interpret what he was seeing.

The other side of the argument is the aircraft has been flying for what 50 years or so without one, so obviously it’s not required, and you don’t need one to run LOP either, you just need one to run LOP at higher power, but you can easily run LOP at less than 65% or maybe even 75% power, as I’m risk adverse, I use 65%, but if your wanting to conserve fuel your not at high power anyway. How many flight hours is 7.5K? It depends on your financial situation, if you can take 7.5K out of petty cash and not miss it, go ahead, they are nice to have, but if 7.5 K is a chunk of change for you, maybe it’s best spent elsewhere, like a engine reserve fund or maybe getting your IFR ticket if you don’t have it etc. or saving up for that first Annual that may be more expensive than you might expect. Of course many will say that you have to have one.

Might be tough to do, many failures sometimes cause nearly identical symptoms, a stuck valve may show similar symptoms EGT wise to a fouled plug, but when a device fault isolates something and says it’s X, people have a tendency to believe the thing and are hesitant to trouble shoot or think of other possibilities. ‘One Military aircraft I worked on had what your speaking of, it was called FDLS or Fault Detection and Location System, primarily electronic of course but FDLS would flag a box as bad and sometimes people would install multiple boxes fo fix the issue, and sit back and scratch their head after the third box didn’t fix the problem, when the problem was a pushed back pin in the cannon plug. Used to be the trouble shooting started at “buzzing” wires and checking cannon plugs, but when FDLS fault isolated to a box, it’s understandable why people start there. Mostly younger people have become more enamored with electronics in general than older mechanics, with the rapid growth and capability of modern electronics it easy to understand why, modern electronics have added capabilities that even a couple of decades ago woud have been considered Science fiction. ‘But sometimes it really is as simple as a loose plug wire or magneto cap.

Lycoming max allowable oil consumption formula 0.006 x BHP x 4 ÷ 7.4 = Qt./Hr. If I do the math right a 200 HP motor is allowed to use .65 quarts an hour or 6.5 quarts every 10 hours. ‘So 1 quart every 6 to 8 is well within limits Lycoming color codes, the old chrome barrels had the whole circumference of the jug right at the base colored orange. https://www.lycoming.com/content/understanding-engine-color-codes

I woud say insure or for 1.5 times the cost to repair a gear up. I say that as a gear up is possible even if unlikely, and it’s my understanding that due to residual value of the aircraft that insurence won’t pay repair costs if the cost plus the residual value equals the insured value. Assuming of course they will write one that high. ‘What does a gear up cost? I can’t say, I could only guess, maybe ask around. That is if you really had rather have it repaired then you would rather have a check ‘In other words let’s say you insure for 40 and a gear up cost 35 to fix, if the value of the damaged airplane is 10, then your getting a check, with maybe an option to buy the airplane back for 10. Those numbers are made up and not meant to represent the actual costs. ‘I did see an old guy lose his Maule, he collapsed one gear, not a big deal but insurence showed up and immediately wrote a check and turned around and sold the airplane for pretty much what it was insured for, as he had it underinsured. He ended up buying it back after it was repaired as he never wanted to lose it to start with. Older M4. He had it insured for what he paid for it long ago, and believe it or not but years later it was worth more than what it sold for. Of course inflation meant that every year the actual value of the fixed dollar amount shrunk.

You may already know all of this and or have seen it before =, but if not it may be worth reading https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-107B.pdf. I know about pressurized mags, but bought that unpressurized ones would work marginally at least up into the low 20’s or so. I know they will up to 20K anyway as my Maule’s service ceiling was 20K and it was a NA airplane. I had to look that up, I didn’t remember ‘How high do you guys fly?