Plane goes down in Lake Michigan

[rainman]

Just saw on CNN that a plane has gone down into Lake Michigan today 27 July. No word on survivors or intended destination.

[DaV8or]

Hmmm... didn't we just have a discussion about glide distance, etc and crossing the great lakes? Maybe my suggestion of following the shoreline isn't so lame after all.

[carusoam]

http://www.cbs58.com/news/local-news/Plane-crashes-into-Lake-Michigan-217250081.html?m=y&smobile=y

Piper, two men perished, possibly drowned in the sunken wreckage, 3 miles off shore...

-a-

[mulro767]

Racine to Oshkosh? Not sure why they ended up out so far over water where they couldn't glide to shore. They should've been over land filing direct with vectors around west side of MKE. Very sad.

[jetdriven]

Hmmm... didn't we just have a discussion about glide distance, etc and crossing the great lakes? Maybe my suggestion of following the shoreline isn't so lame after all.

And the fact if you dont have a raft or survival suit you are dead? Sheesh.

[aviatoreb]

Hmmm... didn't we just have a discussion about glide distance, etc and crossing the great lakes? Maybe my suggestion of following the shoreline isn't so lame after all.

 

A piper cherokee has a not so good glide ratio of 6:1 vs the 11 or 12:1 of a standard mooney or a 16:1 of a full feathering rocket or missile.  The principle I suggested is the same for any glide ratio - if you cannot easily glide to shore, then have another plan.  Or better yet, stay with in glide to shore flight paths.  That's just a bit harder with a 6:1 glide ratio.  Sadly, in this case it seems that life vests and life rafts would not have helped since the two pilots remained trapped in the airplane as it sank to the bottom.

 

A lovely day planned at Oshkosh gone terribly wrong.  Tragic.

[gjkirsch]

_{I came across the lake yesterday at 3:30.  It was pretty solid clouds from 3500 to 7000.  Hate to speculate why they were out there or what went wrong.  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N32CG}

[aviatoreb]

Cherokees glide like man hole covers. I once took a one day aircraft ditching course up in Connecticut. It was all about how to get out of the airplane and survive after you ditch. Full motion simulator in a heated pool. Highly recommended, as this accident illustrates, if you fly over water very much.

 

Where was that training specifically (I might go someday).

[WardHolbrook]

I believe that a conscientious pilot will always have an out. It doesn't matter how many engines you've got, whether they're piston or turbine, where or when you fly as long as you leave yourself an out. In singles, outs are pretty hard to come by over open water, at night  or in low IFR conditions. Oh and parachutes aren't an out. 

[201er]

I believe that a conscientious pilot will always have an out. It doesn't matter how many engines you've got, whether they're piston or turbine, where or when you fly as long as you leave yourself an out. In singles, outs are pretty hard to come by over open water, at night  or in low IFR conditions. Oh and parachutes aren't an out. 

Yet most accidents are the result of operator error rather than a situation void of outs...

 

Stall to final cannot be prevented by "outs" whether you fly a skyhawk or a 777...

[aviatoreb]

Hi, Erik. Good "seeing" you.

Jim

http://www.survivalsystemsinc.com/

 

Hi Jim.  Did you see me?

 

AH - at the Sub- base?  My wife went to Conn College right across the river.  We find ourselves there sometimes...and maybe next time I go - I will sign up to get wet.

[WardHolbrook]

Yet most accidents are the result of operator error rather than a situation void of outs...

 

Stall to final cannot be prevented by "outs" whether you fly a skyhawk or a 777...

What you refer to is BASIC airmanship. What I'm referring to is judgment and planning. It certainly takes both. 

[fantom]

What you refer to is BASIC airmanship. What I'm referring to is judgment and planning. It certainly takes both. 

 

No doubt....'almost' doesn't cut it in good judgement & planning.

 

[DaV8or]

No doubt....'almost' doesn't cut it in good judgement & planning.

 

 

Is this picture from this thread's accident?!! I hope not.

[fantom]

Is this picture from this thread's accident?!! I hope not.

 

Nope...

[jetdriven]

If you ditch cold water without a life raft, you will die.  Remember that.

 

You can play the odds with mechanical failure, night, IMC, trees, two-lane blacktop, and city streets, but you are 100% guaranteed to lose with cold water.

[WardHolbrook]

If you ditch cold water without a life raft, you will die.  Remember that.

 

You can play the odds with mechanical failure, night, IMC, trees, two-lane blacktop, and city streets, but you are 100% guaranteed to lose with cold water.

Even with a life raft you can have some serious problems. I've attended several ditching and water survival courses and climbing into a life raft in open water can be quite a challenge for 50 and 60 somethings. Throw in an injury and some swells and it's going to be very problematic. Don't believe me? Take an open water ditching course. It's a bit more intense than doing it in a hotel swimming pool. 

 

The correct answer is to ALWAYS leave yourself a solid gold out. If you ever find yourself without one then you need to ask yourself the question why are you there? 

[jetdriven]

I like that Ward, if you have a raft you have a half a chance. Without, you have no chance. That is why I bought a raft for the Bahamas trips/.

[201er]

But what if your raft pops. Then what's your out?

[jetdriven]

raft pops?

[WardHolbrook]

I like that Ward, if you have a raft you have a half a chance. Without, you have no chance. That is why I bought a raft for the Bahamas trips/.

The advantage to life jackets is that they make the bodies slightly easier to recover, they don't sink quite as fast. But they're still almost impossible to spot without a beacon. Odds of survival are a function of water temperature and time in the water. 

[jetdriven]

I have both, plus a 406 PLB

[WardHolbrook]

I have both, plus a 406 PLB

If you haven't already, I'd suggest that you and any of your regular passengers sign up for an open water ditching course. A little "OJT" never hurt anyone and it will go a very long way towards ensuring a positive outcome if/when that engine ever packs it in.

[fantom]

But what if your raft pops. Then what's your out?

 

A good relationship with your maker.

 

If you require complete safey, sell your plane and get a Tiddly Winks Kit.

 

When I was in the Air Force stationed at Homestead, one of my many additional duties was Life Support Officer. As such I scheduled recurrent air crew water survival training. On the last day, participants were hooked to a high tower on the back of a speeding boat with a deployed parachute on.

 

Then after being dropped into Biscayne Bay, being dragged by the currents and wind until you unhooked from a wet and heavy chute (some unhooked before getting to water - the fall hurt), inflating your May West, getting to the two man raft, struggling into it, popping a flair when the chopper was in sight, and trying to hook up to a penetrator line under strong chopper prop wash, and finally being hauled up to friendly arms.

 

Never easy, even for young guys in great shape. What we let 'them' do to us just so we could fly always amazed me. Our biggest worry were the sharks in the Bay. We were told not to bother with the repellent in our kits because the sharks liked to eat it.

 

Real ejections were easier in one way since wonderful PJ's would jump into the Tonkin Gulf to assist, and earn an Air Medal for the rescue. God bless everyone of them.

[Jeff_S]

As a former rescue diver in the cold water environment of Colorado, I can confirm that what Byron and others have said about cold water is spot-on.  Exposure to water even as warm as 60 dF for more than an hour can kick in hypothermia.  As the temperature declines the danger time shortens considerably, to just a couple of minutes at freezing temps.

 

Now, the good news is that even if you do drown, if the rescue/recovery specialists can get to you within 45 minutes you still have a chance. There's this thing called the cold water near-drowning reflex which kicks in, shuts down your breathing and your heart rate but still leaves just enough electricty going through your system that they can revive you and possibly even make a full recovery. I know of cases where children and young adults were under for up to an hour and are now leading a normal life.

 

Not something you want to plan for, though. Better to wear an exposure suit and have a raft if you're really going over dangerous patches of cold water. Or stay within glide distance of land of course.