Install of JPI EDM-730

[Earl]

As I posted a while ago I decided to go ahead with the install of the EDM-730 in my 252.  So far it has not been a pleasant process and I am not sure who is to blame, JPI, the Mooney Service Center or both.  They have had the plane for 2 weeks now and it is still not done.  Lots of problems with the output of the unit that is apparently related to a variety of things.  Lots of calls to JPI with long hold times and incomplete answers or suggestions that did not work.  Sadly someone had to go first and I think from now on my first question will be "How many of these exact same units have you done?"  I asked the question about the JPI installs and was told numerous but this is the first EDM-730, bit no problem right?  I am dreading the bill to see how much of their learning I am going to pay for.  I had an install quote of $800 which seemed reasonable at the time and I hope he stays with that quote.  One nagging problem is I decided to avoid the cost of adding manifold pressure but the unit still shows a big red X where the MP is supposed to be displayed when it is supposed to not display anything.    JPI is baffled and has sent a work around so we will see if it works.

Of course while he was working on the EDM he encountered a couple of must do items that somehow were not identified in my last annual.  Am starting to get that uncomfortable feeling.......  I'll keep you posted.

[Magnum]

The upgrade of my EDM 800 to 830 is now finished, my shop had no problems at all. I did the EDM 800 installation a couple of years ago with my brother (he is a IA), our biggest problem was the installation of the MP (we had to install a T-fitting and a new hose, there was not much space, took approx. 2-3hours). Everything else was easy. The upgrade to the EDM830 was done by just swapping out the old unit and using the existing connectors.

Do you have the RPM option? JPI told me to enable RPM and MP the engine has to run when switching on the unit for the first time. Maybe your EDM thinks now it is a 830 and looks for the MP.

If I were you I'd buy the RPM, MP and OAT sensors, it makes powersettings much easier (no more fiddling around with the power settings table) and you see how much power you loose when operating LOP, too. Additionally all parameters are logged and you have a cheap trend monitoring. I saved all the data since I installed the EDM, if I think something is going on I can compare the values. And if I want to sell her I can show the data to the buyer, so he knows how I treated the engine.

[KSMooniac]

That sounds awful.  Good luck with the resolution!  I'm a happy EDM-700 user, although I didn't install mine.  I'm tempted to upgrade to a -730 or -830, but more than likely will wait until a do a glass panel overhaul and go for a full replacement monitor/instrument package and delete my old engine gauges entirely.

[Immelman]

Sounds like a couple of things going on there -- perhaps all the bugs aren't worked out? I installed an EDM 700 w/ fuel flow a couple of years ago and had absolutely no problems with the unit. The first time I powered it up it worked fine and has continued to do so.

One thing that caught my attention was your $800 install quote. Unless the shop's hourly rate is obscenely low that sounds very, very low. I recall my A&P billed me for 8-10 hours of his labor on my install -- but I did a LOT of the work. Getting all the probes in place, clamped properly, through the firewall, mounting the instrument, etc., took a lot of time and I am convinenced I would have been in it for a good 2 days of his time if he did the whole thing (granted, I work more slowly than my A&P can). For reference, my install is 4x EGT + CHT and the fuel flow. No additional sensors or probes.

[LFOD]

Not to speak for the OP, but the 830 SHOULD be a slide in replacement for the 800. All you have to do is run the probes to the back of the unit and you should be done. It fits into a standard instrument hole and as long as you dont want it flush mounted, it is pretty straight forward. Obviously that isnt the case here, but I have seen similar upgrades advertised for around 1K. 

[Earl]

Quote: Immelman

Sounds like a couple of things going on there -- perhaps all the bugs aren't worked out? I installed an EDM 700 w/ fuel flow a couple of years ago and had absolutely no problems with the unit. The first time I powered it up it worked fine and has continued to do so.

One thing that caught my attention was your $800 install quote. Unless the shop's hourly rate is obscenely low that sounds very, very low. I recall my A&P billed me for 8-10 hours of his labor on my install -- but I did a LOT of the work. Getting all the probes in place, clamped properly, through the firewall, mounting the instrument, etc., took a lot of time and I am convinenced I would have been in it for a good 2 days of his time if he did the whole thing (granted, I work more slowly than my A&P can). For reference, my install is 4x EGT + CHT and the fuel flow. No additional sensors or probes.

[hansel]

I was quoted 20-22 hours labor for de novo installation of a JPI 830 from an MSC.

[Earl]

OK, the EDM-730 is in and seems to be working.  Sadly the flight from the Mooney Service Center to KRYY was too short to play with it in any appreciable way.  So now for the damages.  Total project cost including labor and parts was $4,573.45.  The cost for the unit including all the probes was $3,160.  After looking on websites for the unit and probes the equipment price seemed about right to me (i.e., no markup).  He only charged me for 16 hours of labor though he said it was a lot more to get it in and trouble shoot all the issues.    It was the first 730 he put in and did not want to penalize me for his learning.....yes, you heard that right.  I did not have the manifold pressure installed but I am thinking I will probably have it added at some point to make setting power a one unit operation.  Fuel flow matches perfectly with the existing unit once he got the right K factors.

Now comes the hard part, learning to use it.  I got my first scare already when I leaned for the flight back home and while the plane's TIT showed 1,350 degrees the 730 was showing closer to 1,600.  That seemed to me a big discrepency and I called the shop and asked about it.  He said he would trust the probe in the 730 over the old one.  Scares me to think how I have been running the engine without the information.  He has offered to have me fly over and he will go with me in the plane and give me a primer on how to use the unit to its fullest.  Before I take him up on that I am going to watch all the training videos and read the manual so I am as close to ready to go as possible. 

By the way, he gave me a lecture about not operating LOP.  Since I don't have GAMI injectors I wasn't planning on that anyway but I may add them at some point and then I will give it a try.  All in all it is a very cool looking instrument and I think it will really help me with engine management and will hopefully get my cylinders to TBO.

[hansel]

Thanks for the report. If you don't mind, post a picture-- I'd like to see how you have it mounted on the panel.

(And don't worry... someone here will jump on the soapbox about LOP operations soon enough)

[Jeff_S]

So the lecture about not operating at LOP: was he promoting LOP or was he steering you away from it since you don't have GAMI injectors?

I think it's funny how the LOP/ROP debate rages across all aviation groups. We go through this in the Piper forum about once a year as well.

[Earl]

Quote: Jeff_S

So the lecture about not operating at LOP: was he promoting LOP or was he steering you away from it since you don't have GAMI injectors?

I think it's funny how the LOP/ROP debate rages across all aviation groups. We go through this in the Piper forum about once a year as well.

[KSMooniac]

Your next best step would be to attend the Advanced Pilot Seminar weekend short-course, or as a 2nd-best option take their web course, and then decide for yourself about ROP vs. LOP.  You will also learn how to interpret what your engine monitor is telling you, and most importantly, how to react when something is amiss.  I'll tell you this for free...your mechanic is just plain ignorant on the topic.  You also may not need GAMIjectors as some engines run great LOP right out of the box, but others don't. 

If I had a turbo, I'd be running around all day long at 80-90% power LOP, going faster, running cleaner, and running cooler than you guys flying at 75% ROP.  I'll also be using less fuel.

[fantom]

Quote: KSMooniac

If I had a turbo, I'd be running around all day long at 80-90% power LOP, going faster, running cleaner, and running cooler than you guys flying at 75% ROP.  I'll also be using less fuel.

[KSMooniac]

Gary, I routinely cruise at 8,000 feet at 65% power LOP, so I'm not giving up any speed relative to 65% ROP.    Power is power.  65% LOP on our birds = 8.7 GPH, and I don't have the charts handy to see what the book says to set 65% ROP.  You only lose speed if you reduce power, which unfortunately for us happens without a turbo at the higher altitudes when transitioning from a typcial ROP power setting by the book to a LOP power setting.  If you're not already doing it, run wide-open-throttle all the time until you setup for an approach.  I lose 5-7 knots from best power to my typical LOP cruise setting, but save 2-2.5 GPH.  That is a fair trade.

Also, do you have a full monitor?  You said CHT is about 340...is that all 4 or just one?  My CHTs vary as much as 40 degrees in reality, and the OEM gauge is not on the hottest.

I'll also reiterate the ICP point I explained in the other thead (the damaged cylinder one)...running 65% ROP will result in a higher peak ICP than 65% LOP and give you the same speed.  However, the jugs will be enduring a higher fatigue stress.  This means they may or may not last for entire TBO run, or better yet, be good candidates for a cylinder overhaul and ANOTHER TBO run.  Since our jugs are sole-source Lycoming, they cost double what other ones do.  This means if you can overhaul them and run them for a second TBO, you'll keep ~$4000 in the bank.  That is a signficant carrot IMO.  Running LOP reduces the fatigue loading on the cylinders and increases the chances of a long and happy life, unless there are other problems like the valve fit issues I mentioned in the other thread.

At the end of the day, running LOP is easier on the engine, gives you much better fuel efficiency, the potential to run the engine longer, for the "expense" of a few extra minutes on a typical trip.

[KSMooniac]

Oops, I just re-read your post and saw that you have an EDM-700.  Are all of your CHTs in the 340 range?  I wish my spread were more consistant.  Here is the other thread where I explained some of the science behind LOP advantages:

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=873

[Earl]

Quote: KSMooniac

Your next best step would be to attend the Advanced Pilot Seminar weekend short-course, or as a 2nd-best option take their web course, and then decide for yourself about ROP vs. LOP.  You will also learn how to interpret what your engine monitor is telling you, and most importantly, how to react when something is amiss.  I'll tell you this for free...your mechanic is just plain ignorant on the topic.  You also may not need GAMIjectors as some engines run great LOP right out of the box, but others don't. 

If I had a turbo, I'd be running around all day long at 80-90% power LOP, going faster, running cleaner, and running cooler than you guys flying at 75% ROP.  I'll also be using less fuel.

[fantom]

Probably 320 to 340 on CHT and 1320 to 1360 on EGT....ROP. Interesting that the spread is wider , and much more sensitive LOP. Like you I lose 5-7 knots, but my fuel saving is only 1.5 GPH.

I hear, and agree, with what your saying about our jugs. The most important point for folks to take away is the only downside to smart LOP operations is you'll go a little slower.

For those that want to skip the $995+ Advanced Pilot Seminar cost, you can find a series of LOP operation articles on AvWeb, by Mike Bush, that should give you all you need to know. 

[Jeff_S]

So, I have this handy iPhone app which helps determine power and fuel flow settings to achieve a desired HP at a given altitude and temperature, designed specifically for our IO-360 Axxx engines (in fact, derived from the actual engine operation manual charts). I plug in 8000 feet, std temp (-1C), and then have the option of using Economy or Power settings.  For the sake of consistency I'll keep it at 2500 RPM although you can even dial that around too if you want. Here's what it says:

65% power, Best Power, 2500 RPM, 20" MP, 11.0 GPH

65% power, Economy, 2500 RPM, 20.8", 9.2 GPH

While purely theoretical and taken from the ops manual, this would seem to jive with Scott's experience for the most part. It supports a higher MP reading while leaned out to maintain the same power, and being able to accomplish this with lower fuel flow.

This discussion has been helpful to me as I come up to speed (or LOP speed, anyway!) on this new bird of mine.

[fantom]

I was surprised about the issue of GAMI injectors as that seemed to be a must have from what I read (I know, all the info was probably put out by GAMI).  When you say they run great without GAMI's exactly what does that mean?  Is it related to temperatures or engine roughness or both or something else?

[KSMooniac]

ehscott, read up on the link that Gary just posted, and that will tell you (a) if you need GAMIjectors and ( what GAMI will need to know in order to craft a custom set for your engine.  In my case, my "GAMI Spread" is 0.0-0.2 GPH between the first cylinder to peak and the last, so I did not need the GAMIjectors, and GAMI would tell me exactly that.  They won't sell you something that you don't need, and they'll take them back for a full refund too.  The TCM TSIO-360 engines are notorious for being tricky to run LOP, but your -MB engine is much better than the earlier variants from everything I understand.

The APS online course is surely better than nothing, but you'll miss out on the live question-answer sessions and seeing the test stand in live operation.  (Of course they cannot bring that to Dayton, so that might not matter in this case)  The Q&A sessions were extremely helpful for me, especially when the instructors would ask for any of the Old Wives Tales that folks have heard like "running LOP will burn up your cylinders" and they would write them on big poster pages, and paste them on the wall.  By the end of the course, every question or OWT could be answered or refuted by the students.  I believe that if you take the on-line version and subsequently take the live class, you will get full or nearly full credit towards the tuition, so it is a low-risk way to start wading into the educational pool.  Purchasing the course notebook might be optional for the on-line class...it is worth every penny to have the hardcopy.

As Gary mentioned above, a lot has been published, but you really have to dig to get the info and of course it won't be clearly organized into a coherent flow of ideas.  John Deakin (the 3rd APS guy) wrote a lot over the years on engine management for AvWeb, and that is available for free over there.  I highly recommend reading everything he wrote, regardless of your APS class attendance.  Mike Busch is also good, but I don't think knows the LOP topics as well as Deakin.  Mike preaches a lot about "on-condition" maintenance, which I believe in.  He treats cylinder like any other accessory, to be repaired or replaced as necessary and not "just because."  That is why I intend to overhaul mine instead of replacing them when it comes time to overhaul my engine.  Also, these days it seems to be a crap-shoot in terms of quality no matter who makes a cylinder, cam, or crank...I'd rather have my known-good stuff inspected and returned to service if they meet the specs instead of rolling the dice on some of the stuff that has been "cost-savingsed" in the last decade!

[M016576]

Thanks for the GAMI test link, I've just sent in my latest motor download from the JPI.  I've been curious about running LOP for a while now, but I have yet to take the plunge.  Thanks!