Cleared for Runway, Keep Best Speed

[aviatoreb]

Thursday I was cleared for rwy 33 at KBTV behind a hawker jet and ahead of a 727.  Clearance came at about 2 mi from final for a 6 mile final.  Before that I was being vectored all over the place, with the airport always in site as I arrived at a particularly busy moment.  Tower said keep the speed up.

So, I keept 135 until I turned final for a 6 mile final.  On final I slowed to 125 by about 2.5 mi, including gear still up, then I worked to slow more by dropping gear.  By 1.5 mi or so I was at 100 or so.  At some point I need to slow down right?  At 1mi and still at 95 (I was slowing though and had my 80 at 50ft well in hand), controller said, Mooney 933 landing clearance revoked turn left bearing 270.  So I complied of course, and he had me do a big circle as I waited for two jets to land then I eventually landed behind yet another jet - attention wake turbulence and all that - on a long runway like that its easy enough to land well past the jets glide path...

 

So, how fast should I go when they say best speed for landing traffic behind me?  How fast does a 727 go that they wanted me to stay ahead of?  Did he want me at 140?  (knots - my airspeed indicator is in knots so I am speaking ias in knots).  When do I get to slow down?  I figured 2.5 mi to go was the right time to slow down but apparently not.

 

[Gone]

I have crossed fence doing 140 just to pull the throttle, drop the gear and raise the nose for the airplane to start settling down for a greaser 2000' down a 10,000' runway on a cloudless night being followed by a "Speedbird" (British Airways) 747 some 8 miles behind me. ''twas a beautiful calm night flight. Length of runway, and visibility were my acceptance criteria for the clearance to land with a similar instruction. Calm winds helped. Sent from my iPad

[DrBill]

Similar thing happened to me at KRDU.  I stayed at 140kts till "flare" then cut the throttle dropped the gear and landed about 2/3 way down the runway, which I had to go way down there anyway for the FBO. Tower gave me a "thanks Mooney" as I was transfered to ground.

Bill

[1964-M20E]

I was flying home yesterday and heard approach do the same thing to someone else at an airport I was not going to. With a long runway if the conditions are good enough I do not see any reason not to keep your speed around 130 to 140 kts ground speed up if ATC requests it pulling back on the throttle and slowing down as you cross the fence. Of course it is always up to the PIC. You could also tell ATC unable and then they will vector you around for another pass anyway. If you are over the runway and feel you cannot make a good landing then you can always elect to go around yourself. I've kept my GS up around 150kts before on an approach but sky was 30BKN vis 10m it was a 10,000 runway and I was circling to land anther airport.

[HopePilot]

This happens to me quite a bit, as there are mostly 737s at my field.  One time, when told to keep my speed on final, I said, "I can either keep my speed up or drop my gear...your choice."  They thought about it for a second and replied, "Speed at your discretion."

 

 

 

[

[Alan Fox]

Generally if you are dealing with Jets , you have 8000 feet or more of runway , Generally in this situation in the mooney , I will keep it fast in the descent , 135 , 140 kias , throttle all the way out , level it at about 1/4 mile from the numbers , get the gear down , get the flaps down , land at about 3/4 mile past the numbers..... In the beech you can scream to the threshhold at 160kias chop the power , drop the gear , full flaps , land in 2500 feet..... It doesnt float

[gregwatts]

If it makes you feel better......one night flying into Atlanta/Hartsfield, I heard ATC repeatedly tell a Hawker to keep its speed up.....there were 10 jets in the approach. When it became evident that the Hawker wasn't going fast enough to keep the flow going, the controller vectored the Hawker off of final and put him at the end of the line. If you can keep the flow going.....usually you are fine. If it is obvious that your speed will interupt the flow.........you will get vectored. You were 8 miles out when you got the speed request and then 6 miles out when you began slowing. That 747 was probably maintaining a steady speed for that same 6 miles.

[Marauder]

Or this little gem. Tower: "Mooney X, you are cleared to land" Tower: "Gulfstream Y, go around" Gulfstream: "Tower, it costs $1000 to do a go around" Tower: "Gulfstream Y, do a $1000 go around" Can't remember where I read that but it was pretty funny.

[jetdriven]

IF its VFR you can get away with some serious speed until very close to the airport.  You should be able to do 150 KIAS until a couple miles out.

[AndyFromCB]

Chicago approach once asked me to maintain 165 to the marker. I did, then chopped the power, popup speed brakes, dropped the gear and landed KMDW 4R about 90 over the fence. 33knot headwind helped in no using much runway.

[aviatoreb]

I have crossed fence doing 140 just to pull the throttle, drop the gear and raise the nose for the airplane to start settling down for a greaser 2000' down a 10,000' runway on a cloudless night being followed by a "Speedbird" (British Airways) 747 some 8 miles behind me. ''twas a beautiful calm night flight. Length of runway, and visibility were my acceptance criteria for the clearance to land with a similar instruction. Calm winds helped. Sent from my iPad

 

So 140 til very short final?

 

I have been very impressed in general how speed brakes, then gear, then a slight pull up on the pitch, then flaps, and I can go from 160, 170 to 95 very quickly, but I have never tried it at the last moment at short final.

 

Mostly I figured that 125 was good enough.  I guess not.  I frequent this airport a lot so eventually they recognize your airplane and I feel a little like I let them down.

 

Yes I know I can declare "unable" if I am unable, but I think I and the airplane are quite able - I am just asking what speed do I need to do?  And to share the experience.

[aviatoreb]

IF its VFR you can get away with some serious speed until very close to the airport.  You should be able to do 150 KIAS until a couple miles out.

 

How fast is the heavy iron doing behind me?

 

It was severe clear VFR, so no problem there.  So how far out would you pull back from 150?  A couple as in 2?

[M016576]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="aviatoreb" data-cid="87037" data-time="1358100896"><p>

How fast is the heavy iron doing behind me?<br />

<br />

It was severe clear VFR, so no problem there. So how far out would you pull back from 150? A couple as in 2?</p></blockquote>

Probably going between 150-180kts. Even the Super Hornet, with leading edge flaps, trailing edge flaps, dropped ailerons and a huge leading edge extention had an approach speed of 140kts with about 6k of fuel onboard.

I wouldn't let approach or tower paint you into a corner- that's when mistakes tend to be made. Diving at the runway at 150 kts and trying to flare off the excess speed is a pretty advanced technique: personally, I would have done just what you did. Go arounds are free- a botched landing can be very expensive!

[aviatoreb]

I wouldn't let approach or tower paint you into a corner- that's when mistakes tend to be made. Diving at the runway at 150 kts and trying to flare off the excess speed is a pretty advanced technique: personally, I would have done just what you did. Go arounds are free- a botched landing can be very expensive!

 

I was just surprised that 125 was not good enough.  I felt pretty happy with myself with complying with the request and disappointed it was not enough.

 

I wonder if I had maintained 150 until the same 2.5 mi point and then slowed it would be fine?  That is not so close that it would taking waiting until the flare to shed the speed.

[AcclaimML]

Kudos to you for staying safe and in your comfort zone. If you'd practiced approach to short final at those speeds and knew what to expect. Maybe then you could feel a bit let down. But your job as a pilot isn't style points. It's to fly and land safely. For you and your loved ones. Just IMHO

[gjkirsch]

I have been into MIdway a number of times and each time they asked me to maintain 160 to the marker.  So at the marker, power back, speed brakes out and gear down.  I nice long runway helps ALOT  .  Of course you always feel better when they ask you to slow for the Lear you are gaining on.

[gregwatts]

I was just surprised that 125 was not good enough.  I felt pretty happy with myself with complying with the request and disappointed it was not enough.

 

I wonder if I had maintained 150 until the same 2.5 mi point and then slowed it would be fine?  That is not so close that it would taking waiting until the flare to shed the speed.

 

I wouldn't try to over-analyze it. It's possible the controller misjudged and decided it was better to send you around than possibly sending the 747 around. The entire event may have been really a non-event......just the controller's discretion. Those controllers....for the most part....do an awesome job. Every once in a while they exercise their judgement and sometimes we don't agree. You may have been spot on perfect......but the controller made a decision.

[jetdriven]

I have maintained 160 KIAS until a 1 mile left base.   Get low, set the power to 16",  pull up slightly, at 132 KIAS gear down, then full flaps at the white arc.  This takes about a mile at most.

[jhbehrens]

the other way around... I was once asked to reduce speed as I was coming down an arrival at 180kts IAS because I was catching up on the 747 in front of me on the approach.

[Dave Marten]

"I wouldn't let approach or tower paint you into a corner- that's when mistakes tend to be made. Diving at the runway at 150 kts and trying to flare off the excess speed is a pretty advanced technique: personally, I would have done just what you did. Go arounds are free- a botched landing can be very expensive"

Well said! BL: don't try anything dumb, different, or dangerous when under pressure.

If you need to regularly mix it up with the big iron then develop your own technique for keeping the speed up, but practice it so it becomes part of your routine.

A technique: If told to maintain best speed, answer back with what you CAN do. That will give ATC a reference so they can tell if they'll have seperation behind you. IE, "Mooney 1RX can give ya 140kts till 1 mile"

My own level of agressiveness on approach decreases as pilot workload increases due to factors like night/wx/fatigue/strange field/wet runway/etc.

[aviatoreb]

the other way around... I was once asked to reduce speed as I was coming down an arrival at 180kts IAS because I was catching up on the 747 in front of me on the approach.

 

haha - 747 best speed please.

 

Mooney you are cleared for rwy 33 behind the 747, attention wake turbulence.

 

747 best speed please.

 

Mooney, slow to 160.

 

747, your landing clearance is revoked, turn left 270 and go around.

[aviatoreb]

I have maintained 160 KIAS until a 1 mile left base.   Get low, set the power to 16",  pull up slightly, at 132 KIAS gear down, then full flaps at the white arc.  This takes about a mile at most.

 

I have slowed quickly just like that from 160IAS and even more with just that procedure, but never in landing sequence near the rwy.

 

Thank you all for your feedback and confirmation.  I am quite happy with what I did, which is do what I have done before and so comfortable with.  I think it will be no problem though and worth the trouble, to practice to speed up a bit my long final approach speed for this scenario in the future.

 

By the way, this was last Thurs was a really cool time after the landing.  I was going to the air force guard to pick up a friend.  I had a really wonderful opportunity to walk around some very very impressive airplanes.

[aviatoreb]

Kudos to you for staying safe and in your comfort zone. If you'd practiced approach to short final at those speeds and knew what to expect. Maybe then you could feel a bit let down. But your job as a pilot isn't style points. It's to fly and land safely. For you and your loved ones. Just IMHO

 

Well said.

[Seth]

I was landing at PIT - Pittsburgh once in my former F model (which does have speedbrakes - my current aircraft does not) and I was asked to keep speed up on final due to the jet behind me.  I deicded since had the field in sight (I was on an ILS approach through a layer at about 2000), I raised my gear, powered up, and let them know I could maintain 140 until about a mile out - just like was suggested in an eariler post.  I got to about a mile out, popped the speed brakes, pulled power, got the gear down, flaps down, trimmed the entire time, and landed on the long runway.  I turned off the runway, got a thank you from the tower, and pretty quickly an MD-80 was rolling past me on the runway (as I had cleared and was taxing parallel on the taxiway. 

 

I almost stated that I was unable to do so (but not using the unable word as that word had not yet crossed my mind), as my instructors told me to never let ATC bully you into a situation that didn't make sense, but I figured with the current situation, it was find to speed up and then slow back down.  It all worked out.

 

In the Missile, since it is hard to slow it down without speedbrakes to gear speed of 132 knots without proper planning, I'd be hesitant to speed up and then slow down, but I would do it in the right situations.  I have been asked to slow down when appraching an airport for spacing purposes (slow to 140, 120, and 110 in three different situations so far, but not to maitain a faster speed yet similar to what was requested in Pittsburgh).

 

-Seth

[N9453V]

I fly a G model and am currently based at HOU (Houston Hobby) so I frequently get this request. The G cruises at about 135 KTAS, Vle is 104 KIAS and Vfe is 108 KIAS so keeping the speed up with Southwest and getting slowed down (when coming in on 4 or 12R they ask me to make the first turnoff roughly 2500-3000ft down a 7000ft runway) can sometimes be a challenge.

If it's VMC or I'll break out at or above 700ft, I'll keep 125 KIAS till about a 1 mile final then power idle, drop the gear at 104 KIAS and add flaps 15 about 200ft. If the ceiling is below 700ft, I advise Houston Approach I'll need a final of 100 kts and I lower the gear at glideslope intercept. This has generally worked well, I've only had to go around once (Approach messes up spacing before a handoff to tower) and Southwest has only had to go around once because of me (Approach asked me to slow down early then Tower asked Southwest to follow me, but they couldn't see me and had to go around).

-Andrew