Surefly Electronic Ignition Fitted to a M20K

[Robert Bridges]

Fitted a Surefly electronic ignition and signal converter to my M20K.   Tachometer is a B&D part number 0513-003.   When I do a mag check on the electronic ignition the rpm drops to zero.   Can anyone assist with this error?

[wombat]

Is the RPM actually dropping to zero (the engine dies), or just the indication and the engine continues to run?

[Dialed In]

It would have likely been cheaper to just move the tach pickup to the other mag instead of using the signal converter. I suspect when you kill the surefly mag the signal also dies so you get no tach reading. I just went through this install and elected to move my tach pickup to the right mag instead of using a signal converter. 

[Bigdaddie]

Do you notice any difference in performance?  How about the dreaded hot start?

Steve

[Danb]

BD, I’ve had a surefly installed on my Acclaim recently and it helped the hot starts quit a bit, the continental still wants to vaporize unlike the lycomings. I’ll most likely have the second one installed in the spring instead of the 500 hour r&m

[Bigdaddie]

I think I have more hours on my starter motor than on the engine.  IF you miss that first kick at a hot start, let the games begin.  I do all the tricks like run the fuel pump for 30 sec, etc.  The ONLY trick that works every time is to flood it and do the old full throttle and mixture cut-off start.

I hope that the SureFly with the extra spark energy will help.  Unfortunately, or fortunately, I have brand new mags complements of Kelly Aerospace.  They had 300hrs but failed inspection, so kudos to Kelly for stepping up and replacing for free out of warranty.

I just wish someone like e-mag would get an STC with a fully self-contained solution.  But for now, SureFly looks like a great product.

Let me know how they perform. 

[Danb]

Big daddie I had a surefly on my bravo for years never had a starting issue although it’s a lycoming, my acclaim has been a nightmare on hot starts I’ve had it, the surefly, for a few weeks and only had to do one flooded start and about 5 hot starts actually started I can only assume the difference is the electronic ignition 

D

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Big daddie I had a surefly on my bravo for years never had a starting issue although it’s a lycoming, my acclaim has been a nightmare on hot starts I’ve had it, the surefly, for a few weeks and only had to do one flooded start and about 5 hot starts actually started I can only assume the difference is the electronic ignition 

D

Everyone had their own method for hot starts, mine is high boost pump for 20 seconds, 3/4 throttle, and full lean, slowly advance the mixture till it pops and be ready to hit the low boost pump if it stutters. I  have had really good success with this, and seldom have to work the starter too hard. 
The other thing I now, when I know I have a quick turn is to park into the wind, and open the oil filler door. 
you’d be amazed at how quickly the engine cools down 

[philiplane]

Move the tach pickup to the other mag and be done.

And don't install dual Surefly SIMs until we have a few more years of experience to learn how durable they will be.

There is ZERO performance benefit to dual SIMs. But you would have double the risk in the event of electrical malfunction, or problems with the SIMs due to aging of the electronics in them. We're asking these things to operate in temperature ranges that normally shorten the life of the electronics inside them. Keeping one conventional magneto reduces the risk associated with that, and with failure of power supply to the SIMs.

I have two Surefly's on my Aztec, meaning one on each engine. I love them, but there is no way I would put two on each engine. Zero benefit, higher cost, higher risk.

Heat is the enemy of electronics. I suspect that Lycomings, and small Continentals, which have the mags on the back of the engine will have fewer problems that big bore Continentals. The Continental IO-470/520/550 engine's mags are located on top of the case, where it is much warmer all the time, and then crazy hot due to heat soak upon shut-down. That cannot be good for the guts of an electronic ignition. Those temps are above the design limits of most capacitors, diodes, and processors.

Edited November 18, 2023 by philiplane

[Ragsf15e]

5 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Move the tach pickup to the other mag and be done.

And don't install dual Surefly SIMs until we have a few more years of experience to learn how durable they will be.

There is ZERO performance benefit to dual SIMs. But you would have double the risk in the event of electrical malfunction, or problems with the SIMs due to aging of the electronics in them. We're asking these things to operate in temperature ranges that normally shorten the life of the electronics inside them. Keeping one conventional magneto reduces the risk associated with that, and with failure of power supply to the SIMs.

I have two Surefly's on my Aztec, meaning one on each engine. I love them, but there is no way I would put two on each engine. Zero benefit, higher cost, higher risk.

I have one and like it as well.  Switched the tach pickup to right side worked for me as well, but I think there are other kinds of pickups used depending on the exact tach that can’t be as easily moved.

[Danb]

10 hours ago, philiplane said:

Move the tach pickup to the other mag and be done.

And don't install dual Surefly SIMs until we have a few more years of experience to learn how durable they will be.

There is ZERO performance benefit to dual SIMs. But you would have double the risk in the event of electrical malfunction, or problems with the SIMs due to aging of the electronics in them. We're asking these things to operate in temperature ranges that normally shorten the life of the electronics inside them. Keeping one conventional magneto reduces the risk associated with that, and with failure of power supply to the SIMs.

I have two Surefly's on my Aztec, meaning one on each engine. I love them, but there is no way I would put two on each engine. Zero benefit, higher cost, higher risk.

Heat is the enemy of electronics. I suspect that Lycomings, and small Continentals, which have the mags on the back of the engine will have fewer problems that big bore Continentals. The Continental IO-470/520/550 engine's mags are located on top of the case, where it is much warmer all the time, and then crazy hot due to heat soak upon shut-down. That cannot be good for the guts of an electronic ignition. Those temps are above the design limits of most capacitors, diodes, and processors.

Thanks for that explanation Phill

D

[Schllc]

This is one of the frustrations I have with the FAA.  There is absolutely no reason we should not be able to have completely automated variable timing systems on our engines. 
The technology has been around for decades.  I am not advocating for the FAA to be abolished, I’m just suggesting that it’s long overdue to enter at least the 20th century. 
The approval process for things like ignition systems and autopilots, and most improvements to be honest, is stupid, and could be streamlined very easily without compromising any safety. 
It should be relatively simple to design a clean sheet new engine, but the rules are so onerous and obtuse that it turns a $30k engine into a $120k engine, and takes 20 years to be approved instead of two.