1986 252 needs a new engine soon

[Bob R.]

My 1986 252 is over TBO. While running great I think the time for a new or reman engine is getting closer. Not sure what to do. Has anyone recently had success with replacing their engine. Looking for help. Thanks

[Pinecone]

Last time I heard, lead times at shops for overhaul are still pretty long.

A Factory Reman or Factory New is more expensive, but you can order the engine and only be down for the swap time (a week or so).

[Crawfish]

If you’re open too it I would suggest not overhauling your engine until it gives you signs it’s in need of overhaul, there’s a ton of really good information on what those indicators might be. To do that though you need to be looking for the signs. Which means having oil samples taken, looking at engine monitor data, inspecting the oil filter every oil change etc. I recommend several of Mike Busch's videos on the subject as well as books.  

(Side note a EIS is much cheaper than an overhaul) 

I see no point in overhauling a strong running engine. Poor use of money and time. 

Best of luck,

 Austin 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Crawfish
Clarity; Additional info

[Pinecone]

Agreed

[hubcap]

12 hours ago, Crawfish said:

I see no point in overhauling a strong running engine. Poor use of money and time. 

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

[Aerodon]

I have a spare TSIO360MB core with 1750tt - lets get it overhauled and ready for when your engine really needs changing.

Aerodon

supercub180@gmail.com

 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think it interesting that many people are very concerned with the TBO based on hours of operation but it’s extremely rare to see anyone bring up wanting to overhaul their perfectly running 1000 SMOH engine because it’s been twelve years since the last major overhaul.  The hour requirement is no more an objective way of determining the necessity of an overhaul than the years requirement.   I’m fact I think based on the typical corrosion issues we see in our engines the year requirement might have more validity.  

Personally I would never tear down an engine unless I had an additional objective reason to do so.  A cracked case, bad leaks that can’t be fixed, a lot of metal in the filter coming from somewhere that requires splitting the case, a worn down cam, etc.  

Along with the long potential lead times for an overhaul  I think it is also important to consider a freshly overhauled engine is very likely more risky than a time proven and well running engine with a bunch of hours on it.  An error in assembly typically results in catastrophic failures versus an older engine will give you signs something is going to fail in the future.  

[MikeOH]

^^^^^^^^^^   THIS    ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Vance Harral]

I notice everyone is jumping on the OP for the sin of perhaps prematurely replacing their engine.  I get that, but it's possible you're all missing the point.

How many of you have looked at lead times lately for actually getting an engine overhauled or receiving a factory reman?  I have, though I don't claim to have turned every stone.  In general, parts and lead times for engine overhaul work are very long.  This idea of waiting until your engine "talks to you" through oil consumption, borescope inspections, oil analysis, metal in the filter, etc. is all well and good; but if it speaks to you any time soon, you're likely not going to get the 1-2 month turnaround time that has historically been available.  These days, an airplane can easily be down for 6 months or a year with that strategy.  A local club I'm affiliated with just got a quote from Air Power for a factory reman O-320-D2G in a 172.  Estimated delivery date is October 2024!

I expect any individual customer could do better than 1 year by calling around, beating the bushes, etc.  But at least in my community of aviation friends, concerns about deciding when to overhaul the engine are trending further away from waiting until it's "actually necessary", and further toward swallowing the bitter pill of higher cost and arguably premature overhaul in exchange for predictable schedules and using preferred suppliers.  Some of these folks' airplanes are just toys, but they're toys they want to have available and enjoy.  In other cases, the airplane is owned by a business or club, whose entire usage model is based on dispatch availability.  For those folks, a 6-month down time could effectively end the club/business.

So in summary, I wouldn't pull a well-running motor off an airplane just because I was afraid of some number on a calendar or tachometer.  But I might very well do so to reduce the chance of the airplane being grounded indefinitely, waiting months or years on engine parts and services.  That's a real thing right now.

[Bartman]

We removed mine in January 2020 and found a cracked case and one bad camshaft lobe.  When The Pandemic hit we saw the upcoming supply chain problems and put obtaining parts as a high priority.  Fortunately we had it rebuilt and installed by July of that year, but there are lots of horror stories of people waiting on various parts and cases.  

If I were doing it right now or planning for the future, I would do a factory exchange.  I know it costs more, but time is money too.

[Pinecone]

Hmm, that was what I was saying in the 2nd post.

With the lead times, it makes sense to make a line in the sand and order a factory engine (reman or new).  Wait a year and some (not sure how long you have to return the core), but get the max out of your current engine.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Hmm, that was what I was saying in the 2nd post.

With the lead times, it makes sense to make a line in the sand and order a factory engine (reman or new).  Wait a year and some (not sure how long you have to return the core), but get the max out of your current engine.

90 Days

https://www.airpowerinc.com/core-return-policy

[Falcon Man]

• My A/P/IA has three engines in shops (IRAN's) and they are all past 11 months waiting for parts - worse for Lycoming d/t business consolidation. Its a Zoo out there!

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

90 Days

https://www.airpowerinc.com/core-return-policy

Thanks.

So with a year lead time, you are 15 months out from having to return the core.

[jlunseth]

Well, as it happens, I am hopefully at the end of that journey, putting a new TSIO360 LB in my 231. First, I ran the engine to 2300 which is 1800 over TBO and the engine was over 20 years old. I liked that engine a lot. I had it IRANd over a decade ago by Bolduc at KANE and it was, according to very experienced Mooney instructors who flew with me over the years, the smoothest running 360 they had experienced. But it was time.

My goal was to replace the engine over the winter so as not to miss much flying time. The choice was between a factory reman and an overhaul at an overhaul shop such as Penn Yan. I chose to go with a factory engine because we could order that, wait for it to arrive, and then drop it in the aircraft, or so I thought. I had my A&P contact TCM and the lead time had expanded to 8 months. Before COVID they generally had factory remans in stock for immediate deliver, according to inquires I made. We also discovered that the difference between a reman and new was substantially less than it has been in the past, about 7k, and for the 7k you get all new peripherals (alternator, etc.), so there really was no difference in price assuming some or all of the peripherals would need to be overhauled. So in May of last year, 2022, I had my A&P order a new engine expecting delivery in the late fall of 2022.

Then, as most will remember, TCM was hit with the crankshaft assembly AD. The AD did not affect the engine they were building for me, but it affected TCM, which spent several months checking engines. My aircraft went out of annual in April (2023) so I took it into the shop to await delivery of the new engine, which did not come until May, a year after it was ordered. 

Installation proceeded over the summer, but there were other supply chain issues, some of which I heard about and some of which I am sure I did not. For example, when the plane was ready with the new engine in it and was test flown it turned out a new voltage regulator was needed. Supply chain. Two months.

The bottom line is that the whole process took a year and a half from ordering the engine to completion, with the plane out of commission for five and a half months, something I did everything I could to avoid. It is discouraging. I hate to say it, but this is aviation, this is how it works. I have tried having my A&P evaluate what parts will be needed, and paying for those in advance, rather than having them proceed with work, run into something, and order the parts then. There always seems to be something unforeseen and the supply chain takes months to deliver even simple things.

If I had it to do over again, I think I would probably have gone the overhaul route. That was a pretty nice engine. From what I hear, overhaul times are six months, which is shorter than what TCM can apparently deliver.  On the other hand, I would budget for rebuild or replacement of all the peripherals that are not rebuilt when the engine is rebuilt, in addition to the engine rebuild. I am not sure there is much of a dollar savings compared to a new TCM, but probably a savings of a few months. 

Lycoming may be better, I don’t know.

Hoping my plane comes home this week. I need to learn to fly it again.

Best of luck.

 

[WilliamR]

I recently purchased a FREM TSIO-360-SB replacing an MB. Most boutique engine shops were minimum 5 months and really they were closer to 6+ mos. Most also offered a'la cart pricing for things like exhaust, accessories, etc. So, it took work to compare costs to the all in- option that Continental/Airpower provides, but I was able to do it. I also considered any warranties. Given the shops I choose had good reps and had been in business decades, any counterparty risk from a warranty was minimal and comparable to the larger Airpower/Continental in my book.

I went with the FREM given the shorter turn around time and total all in cost apples to apples was within a few thousand (couple percent of total installed cost) of using a boutique shop. I ordered the engine June 1 and it was shipped Sept. 23rd (I was warned at purchase delivery may take longer than the 75 days initially quoted).  I see from my invoice the FREM engine cost was $85,224.00 assuming a core of $19,000. Core is due in Dec.

As part of the overhaul I am upgrading to the Encore gross weight. I think that was another $17,500 with labor and parts (probably could be done cheaper, but I wanted turn-key and didn't want to be bothered shopping and collecting parts on my own).

William

[Pinecone]

Previous owner did it that way also.

Factory Reman -SB, and did the Encore upgrade.  Not sure how the parts were sourced.

With the Monroy tanks full (104 gallons) I can still put in 2 full sized people and about 200 pounds of baggage.

 

[dallaslaser]

Do you have the list of Encore upgrade requirements. I have been thinking of upgrading my 252 to an encore.


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[LANCECASPER]

12 minutes ago, dallaslaser said:

Do you have the list of Encore upgrade requirements. I have been thinking of upgrading my 252 to an encore.


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Search is your friend

https://www.google.com/search?q=mooneyspace%3A+Encore+conversion&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS1031US1031&oq=mooneyspace%3A+Encore+conversion&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRg60gEINjQxM2owajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

[Pinecone]

I think the two drawing sheets are here in the forum in the files.

[WilliamR]

Please note, when converting to an Encore, the brakes are the hardest to source. When Maxwell Aviation did my upgrade to Encore, despite telling me verbally and in writing they had all the parts including the brakes for the upgrade, they did not, which caused delays. 

William