Size Comparison...not what you're thinking!

[galt1074]

Hello again all!

 

As I continue my shopping and budgeting process I'd like some input from you folks. I rent a Piper Arrow II from the local FBO and I've taken it on a few cross-country trips. For those of you who have flown both aircraft, how do the interior dimensions compare between an Arrow II, an M20E and the later stretched models like the F and J? The Arrow II is about the right size for me, my wife, and two kids to go on a cross country...the last one was about 3.5 hours. Any smaller than that and I think it would be a bit uncomfortable.

While I'm at it, I'll ask what every Mooney flyer probably really wants to talk about, performance. In reality, how much faster should I expect to travel in a Mooney over an Arrow?

Honestly the Arrow is pretty nice because it has an Aspen PFD and MFD connected to a Garmin 400 and it is pretty easy to fly. If I could just learn to land it (I'm used to landing a C-130 sitting about 10 feet off the ground so the runway look pretty big in the flare when I land the Arrow).

Thanks for all the help you've given me so far. 

 

Greg

[GeorgePerry]

Greg I've flown both extensively. The arrow is good at what it was designed for...A complex HP trainer. An X/C machine it's not. In fact if getting from point A to B is your mission the arrow is a pig and there are alot of fixed gear alternatives that are just as fast with lower fuel burn.

There are other threads covering cabin width and interior dimension comparisions so I won't go into it here. As for how much faster an E is than a arrow the answer is it depends. But in general you'll get about 15 - 20 knots more in a Mooney. That speed delta equates to alot less time and fuel used getting from point a to b, esp if your mission profiles exceed 300 miles.

IMO - Mooney's are better built. The fit and finish of even an older M20 exceeds that of a piper product.

[PTK]

Greg, if you haven't already you should read this article "Why do I own a Mooney".  It contains some good info.

http://www.mooney.org.au/workshop-a-articles/10-why-do-i-own-a-mooney

[David Mazer]

I've flown the Arrow and it is roomier than the Mooney in the way it feels and there is more backseat leg room in the Arrow than the shorter body version Mooneys.  I think you might find the medium body group of Mooneys, F - K I think, a fair comparison in size and a real step up in performance and quality.  You can put whatever avionics you want in it (I have an Aspen PFD/MFD in mine) once it is yours if you buy it at the right price.

[1964-M20E]

My neighbor has his Arrow II for sale but that is another story.  I have flown his Arrow and two different short body Mooney’s.  The Arrow does have more leg room in the rear seat area than my E model.  The Arrow has the same engine as the E model so fuel burn per hour should be right about the same.  The E and C model Mooney’s have 4 or more gallons of fuel (52 on board) than the Arrow with 48 gallons.  The Mooneys are faster so that means less time in the air and less fuel burn.  The Mooney seems to be smoother flying though the air than the Arrow somewhat like the difference between a flat boat and V hull boat on a lake.  The V hull boat rides better.  Oh yes, mine has the manual gear not electric of course that is covered in another thread.

[rbridges]

just my 2 cents, but I'd say the Arrow is close to the C/E models and the Arrow II is probably similar to the F-J models as far as leg room.  If you want to fly kids around routinely, I would opt for the longer models.  My C model is pretty tight in back and my teenage kids are very cramped.

[David Mazer]

Very excellent point Rob!  Do you really want to take your teenage kids anyway?  If you remove the backseats entirely, they would probably get the hint.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I've got time in the Piper Arrow and M20C, F, J, and K.

The main difference is back seat room (smaller on M20A-E), and that the Mooney is a 100x more well-built aircraft.  It's a much simpler design from a systems perspective as well.

[rbridges]

Quote: Mazerbase

Very excellent point Rob!  Do you really want to take your teenage kids anyway?  If you remove the backseats entirely, they would probably get the hint.

[1964-M20E]

My 16 year old son could care less about flying.  He only likes the fact that we can get to FL faster. I'm with your Rob this is strange to me.  I wish my dad had an airplane when I was 16.

[scottfromiowa]

My first complex time was in an Arrow.  It was  a 120-130knot airplane and seemed "fast" compared to a 172 or Cherokee.  The Mooney is a 130-150 knot airplane.  I will defer to Arrow II users in comparison to the F&G Models...My son is just under 6 feet.  He rides up front and "girls" wife and daughter fly in back seat.  As stated any panel can be "made what you want".With Mooney out there the Arrow just wasn't in the game for me.  The fact that you are having a hard time deciding says to me that speed is NOT the primary mission...because if it was as well as build quality and flying characteristics the F&G are superior in a Mooney vs. Piper IMO based on use.

To sum it up I would NEVER buy an Arrow over an F or G Mooney....EVER.

[Cris]

If you are considering an arrow there are various versions with differant engines, wings/tails. I have some time in a 78 Arrow which had the "auto gear", 200 HP, straight tail & the "new" wing. It had a very disconcerting safety feature whereby the gear would drop to prevent gear up landings. I do not recall the exact speeds but it would drop in a climb with a high angle of attack. Typically this happened at altitude but it was very scary as I remember since it led to the stall horn going off as the gear dropped.     

[Shadrach]

As Rob points out, all Arrows do not have the same length cabin. Much like Mooneys, the first iteration was not a the best choice as a 4 plc airplane. A good E will jog away from the the same size Arrow (depending on the HP) by 25-35mph. Maybe even bit more for the later heavier Arrows.

[PTK]

Airplane ownership is an excercise in compromises. Having said that, and IMHO, there is no good reason to look at an Arrow when there is a Mooney. The Mooney is a superior airplane in every caregory. My impression is that the Arrow is a Cherokee with RG. It is slower, heavier and less reliable. At best glide speed the Mooney will go twice as far as the Arrow.

Renting or training is one thing. An Arrow may do. I have a fair amount of time in 55599, a PA28R-200. But when it comes to the serious commitment of airplane ownership, Mooney is the one and only!

 

[pjsny78]

There is a great review on all the specifics on the Mooney M20J vs. the turbo arrow. They had to review the turbo arrow because the normalized version does not even come close.

 

http://www.planecheck.com/turboarrow.htm

[Immelman]

Your typical short body mooney will have 15-20 knots on a 200-hp Arrow II. You'll see much better climb & at-altitude performance in the Mooney, though, giving you more overall options. The Arrow is, as I recall, a bit roomier. If you want to take back-seat pax regularly and they aren't kids, consider a Mooney F or J.

Of all the Arrows, the only one that I appreciated was the Turbo IV. That was a reasonable performer and capable airplane (for a price... again the M20K with the same engine will do better...). The poor climb and altitude performance of the NA ones really got to me. I would not want to own one.

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

Airplane ownership is an excercise in compromises. Having said that, and IMHO, there is no good reason to look at an Arrow when there is a Mooney. The Mooney is a superior airplane in every caregory. My impression is that the Arrow is a Cherokee with RG. It is slower, heavier and less reliable. At best glide speed the Mooney will go twice as far as the Arrow.

Renting or training is one thing. An Arrow may do. I have a fair amount of time in 55599, a PA28R-200. But when it comes to the serious commitment of airplane ownership, Mooney is the one and only!

 

[Shadrach]

I liked this line in the PA28 write up on pilot friend...

"The original Arrow compared well with the Mooney in some departments, such as roominess and cost. However, it fell short in terms of speed... but then, nearly all airplanes do."

[rbridges]

the one advantage you may have looking at arrows is quantity.  You can't seem to swing a dead cat without hitting a cherokee or arrow for sale.  When looking at mooneys, it seemed the selection was much smaller.  Of course, it's been a while since I've been in the market.

[AndyFromCB]

I wouldn't exactly say Arrows are slow. I finally sold mine a few weeks ago, mine was the 1969 200hp so a short wings, short tail and short body. 25/2500 at 6000 it would do 145knots. It was properly rigged and had a full laminar flow kit. Plus my useful was 1030lb so a true full fuel and 4 peeps. See the picture below on a perfect day, doing 148knots. I also had the VGs so I could easily come down 65mph over the fence with a blast of power to arrest the sink rate. 

Comfort wise, my arrow seemed much more roomy than my mooney up front.

Mooney handles turbulence much better than the Arrow but the arrow with gap seals is a much more fun of an airplane to hand fly. Much better cordination of controls, much lighter aileron. My Bravo is a wonderful instrument platform but fun to hand fly, I wouldn't say.

Of course, I'd never seen 200knots before in my Arrow and I see that in my Bravo heading east all the time.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: astelmaszek

I wouldn't exactly say Arrows are slow. I finally sold mine a few weeks ago, mine was the 1969 200hp so a short wings, short tail and short body. 25/2500 at 6000 it would do 145knots. It was properly rigged and had a full laminar flow kit. Plus my useful was 1030lb so a true full fuel and 4 peeps. See the picture below on a perfect day, doing 148knots. I also had the VGs so I could easily come down 65mph over the fence with a blast of power to arrest the sink rate. 

Comfort wise, my arrow seemed much more roomy than my mooney up front.

Mooney handles turbulence much better than the Arrow but the arrow with gap seals is a much more fun of an airplane to hand fly. Much better cordination of controls, much lighter aileron. My Bravo is a wonderful instrument platform but fun to hand fly, I wouldn't say.

Of course, I'd never seen 200knots before in my Arrow and I see that in my Bravo heading east all the time.

[John Pleisse]

Arrows are pigs. Sorry, they are slow, they handle sluggishly, they get throttled in rough air, they are fairly inefficient and I don't like the way they land. The T-Tail 4's absolutely stink. Also, that article comparing the 201 and Turbo Arrow (it's been around for years) is of little relevance, only in that given the same power plant, the Turbo Arrow should be fairly compared to the 231. In this side by side, you would need a rearview mirror in the 231.

Many Mooney owners who become despondant over maint issues or tank leaks...or people who simply can't land Mooney's, always seem to gravitate back to the Arrow.

If I were to fly something that poor, I would get a Beech Sierra instead and at least have cargo room, better quality construction and three doors.

 

[smccray]

Call me crazy, but I'd include a Beech Debonair with the 235 horse engine to your list of options.  Run some scenario W&B calculations as the Bonanzas & Debonairs can be loaded beyond their aft CG limitation.

Personally I liked the efficiency and handling of the Mooney, but to each their own.  Just make sure you fly in the plane you're looking at before you buy it- plenty of people like their Arrows.  The Mooney felt small when I first got in it, but as soon as we took off the first time I flew in it I completely forgot the lack of headroom.  If it doesn't work for you then buy an Arrow.  I read all the studies on cabin size, but this isn't one of those decisions you can make on paper.

[AndyFromCB]

I'm sure the bonanza crew will tell us that Mooney's are pigs too ;-) What do you mean when you say pig? By a beech standard, mooneys are terrible pigs.

A piper arrow does have better control harmony than a mooney. Mooney is a A to B airplane and does so wonderfully, my last flight from KCBF to KTOP took 35 minutes and included exactly 30 seconds of hand flying, the rest was done by twisting knobs. I love that about my airplane but I'm not going to pretend they are fun to take for a spin and go poke holes in the sky. The aillerons, rudder and elevator have completelly different gradients unlike let's say a Baron which is a joy to fly by hand without looking at instruments.

I like my mooney but I do not have a religious affiliation with it. It's a very compromised airplane meant to climb well and go fast but leaves a lot to be desired. But it also leaves a lot of money in my pocket vs a Bonanza.

[Shadrach]

I'd not ever quote an E-E6B as a measure of true airspeed... Fly 3 GPS headings and enter here. I've heard of one other person qoute an Arrow as a 150kt bird, after the laughter stopped we realized he was not joking. Maybe he bought  astelmaszek  old plane...