Pay not attention to me :)

[VAFlyGuy]

Hey all, I just signed up yesterday.  Let me tell you a few things about me and then you can hammer away, toss insults, yell, scream (hey, that'd be like family!) or what not

I took flying lessons in the mid 90s but never finished as I ran out of cash right around cross-country time came up.  Initially I took lessons at MCAS El Toro (where I was a FA/18 hydraulic mechanic for four years) but my flight instructor was a hard-core grumpy and former Gunny SGT.  Him and I didn't get along though he was a good instructor and he had me soloing after 10 dual hours.  I then transferred over to Sunrise Aviation at John Wayne Airport (Orange County, CA) where I found probably the best flight instructor ever.  As I mentioned, I could not finish as I ran out of cash

Fast forward oh 17-18 years later, I moved to NOVA last year for a great job and back in Sept I decided it's a good time to finish up and finally get my license.  Once again I ended up with an instructor I wasn't getting along with (common factor here is me I suppose).  I flew 25 dual hours with this instructor before he would let me solo.  When he did, it was just 30 minutes of pattern work.  I was going over the school's syllabus and it said I should have soloed at 10 hours (at instructor's discretion) and that I should have had a check with a Sr. CFI.  Finally got that done about a week ago.  The instructor said I was fine and he asked if I was happy with my instructor (I wasn't.  Good guy, but his teaching methods don't work on my pea-sized brain).  The Sr. CFI set me up with a more "student orientated" instructor (read: Isn't trying to be a commercial pilot).  I'll begin flying with him in a couple weeks (just moved into a new house to trying to settle in).

So why am I here?  Plainly put, the second I get my license I am going to start looking for a Mooney.  I have had a fascination with Mooney's since I first started taking lessons in the 90s and I know that at some point I want to buy one.  I guess why I am posting here is I was trying to find out what the average cost of a Mooney C, E or J model would be.  I know engine rebuilds are expensive as are annuals and such but I was trying to figure out what the cost would be and if it's feasible.

Sorry for the lengthy message. Just hoping to tap into some of you experienced pilots.  At this point I am not opposed to getting into a "fly share" type of deal.

Thanks!

[Shadrach]

Cost is all over the place depending on how you do it. Use the search feature and read up on all of the past discussions.  It is not uncommon for folks learning to fly inside the or near the D.C. SFRA to have more dual before solo as the airspace will bite you quickly if you get confused or lost. That being said 25hrs seems like a lot, especially for a guy that's already solo'd once.

[flyby201]

Welcome to the group.  I don't think you'll find a lot of insult slinging here.  Most of us are reasonably mannered.  Good luck with the rest of your training.

I've been a Mooney owner since 2005.  I have a 77 "J", paid $80K for it.  Prices have come down a little since then.  I, like you, had always wanted a Mooney, and I can't explain why.  Even before I became a pilot I liked them.  I haven't regretted my purchase.

Start educating yourself now.  You've come to a good place to start that education.  The time between deciding to buy a plane and actually doing it was 2 1/2 years for me.  When you get ready to pull the trigger find a good Mooney saavy A&P to do a pre-buy.

[DonMuncy]

You might consider joining MAPA. Their monthly magazine has a column by Jimmy Garrison, who does up to date Mooney valuations. He generally alternates between the various model groups, so every 3 months you should see the latest word. IMHO, he is the most knowledgeable person anywhere about what they are worth. He and his partner David McGee are brokers and also a very good source for looking for a plane. If I were looking for a Mooney, I would call one of them (All American Aircraft), and tell them what I was looking for. If you don't want to go that route, PM me and I will pull out the latest column from Jimmy and send you a copy.

[KSMooniac]

Welcome!

There a lot of threads here already extolling the virtues on one model vs. another, as well as some of the costs involved.  With 30-45+ year old airframes, prices vary from "haul it away" to something very expensive that was perhaps over-upgraded.  You should make a habit of checking Trade A Plane, Controller, Barnstormers, MAPA classifieds, etc. and you'll quickly get an idea of what the market is, even though those are asking prices.  You'll have to decide what your budget is, and prioritize what you want most... ie a fresh engine, modern avionics, new paint, etc.

It would also be helpful to meet some local Mooney owners and get a ride so you can start to see the differences between various models and options.

[John Pleisse]

I don't know of any partnerships, etc. locally, but if you want a ride in a J or candid talk about the type, I am based FDK and can take you early on a weekday morn. You won't go wrong with a Mooney. I spent six months looking and missing good planes before I purchased mine. Welcome.

[thinwing]

Maybe you could put the military aircraft mechanic experience into rescuing that abandoned Mooney north of you.I bet the airport owner pay you to haul it away....dont laugh.my first airplane didnt have an engine on it...goodluck

 

 

[jwilkins]

Your story is similar to what I went through. I did the start / stop lessons several times over about 20 years  until my wife told me to get off my tail and get my license (along with a one hour gift certificate). I've had some fantastic instructors, one who just wanted to get paid to sit in the airplane for as many hours as I would allow, one ex-military guy who was a yeller (after asking him to stop yelling the next flight I asked him if he 'wanted to get out of the plane NOW or wait until we landed'. That was my last flight with Frank. The best two were the young woman at KROC who got an airline job before I finished and the flying club's full time instructor who finally signed me off for my check ride. It's NOT you. In real life there are some people you get along with; some you don't . Flight instructors and students are no different. Find one you like who is good at instructing and treat them like the cherished friend they will become.

I have been a fan of Mooneys since Gordon Baxter wrote about his C model in Flying. I held off buying an airplane until I got my instrument rating (Upstate NY based at the time on the shores of Lake Ontario). during that time I flew an Arrow, a Cherokee 235, a Cessna 182, a Warrior, a Cessna 150, and a Cardinal RG. I did a lot of flights to VT, CT, and Long Island. 

When I got my IR I bought a C model based on Bax's recommendations and had an absolute ball flying it for business and personal trips around NY and the East Coast. I spend WAY too much upgrading the avionics with a G430 and Stec autopilot, as well as replacing every power wire in the cabin. I made a couple trips NY - CA and AZ with the new avionics. Business got slow and I decided to sell the plane. It was a wonderful plane for the east Coast and an ocassional long XC trip as long as I kept my schedule flexible.

A few years later I wanted another plane. I decided to look for a '67 F (clean wing, longer fuselage, more fuel). I called Jimmy Garrison and told him I wanted a plane that someone ELSE had paid for the upgrades. He called me when he had 477T and it was exactly what I wanted. Good guys to deal with.

About two years ago I bought a house in AZ and slowly moved us and the business to Prescott. I wanted to try a turbo to better deal with the high elevations and high DA out here. Again, I went back to Jimmy at All American and he worked out a trade for me.  

If money is no object for you an Ovation would be nice if you are primarily staying East Coast. If I was still back East and had the money it is what I would like. On my budget 477T was a perfect plane for me. Highly modified it was less of an investment than a 201 and much nicer equipped and cosmetics than any 201 in the same price range. It was  a little slower in cruise than the 201's claim, but not a lot.

Again, my personal opinion, I would not buy a turbo to use around the East coast. I only went above 14,500 twice in the F on the East coast and I probably didn't really need to. Out here based at 5K MSL and Summer DA frequently above 8K, turbulence over the desert in the Summer, and mountains between me and CA, I like the turbo.

The most fun I ever had was local flights in the C puttering around at 23 /23 and using about 8GPH. The manual gear was a hoot and easy to use. Maybe I'm just not used to it yet, but the K seems more suited to get-there, get-back trips which is afterall, why I bought it.

Jim

 

 

 

[VAFlyGuy]

Thanks everyone for the replies.  That is great info!  A couple of things:

a) I won't have my PPL for another 3-4 months (taking my time).

My vehicles will be paid off in the next 12-18 months, so I have time to find a plane.

That said, I am interested in hearing about the Mooney that someone said was just "North" of me.  No engine or not, I'd still be interested.  That said, I don't want mechanically retracts. I like the idea of a standard retract get knob

[VAFlyGuy]

Quote: jwilkins

If money is no object for you an Ovation would be nice if you are primarily staying East Coast. If I was still back East and had the money it is what I would like. On my budget 477T was a perfect plane for me. Highly modified it was less of an investment than a 201 and much nicer equipped and cosmetics than any 201 in the same price range. It was  a little slower in cruise than the 201's claim, but not a lot.

Again, my personal opinion, I would not buy a turbo to use around the East coast. I only went above 14,500 twice in the F on the East coast and I probably didn't really need to. Out here based at 5K MSL and Summer DA frequently above 8K, turbulence over the desert in the Summer, and mountains between me and CA, I like the turbo.

The most fun I ever had was local flights in the C puttering around at 23 /23 and using about 8GPH. The manual gear was a hoot and easy to use. Maybe I'm just not used to it yet, but the K seems more suited to get-there, get-back trips which is afterall, why I bought it.

Jim

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: VAFlyGuy

Thanks everyone for the replies.  That is great info!  A couple of things:

a) I won't have my PPL for another 3-4 months (taking my time).

My vehicles will be paid off in the next 12-18 months, so I have time to find a plane.

That said, I am interested in hearing about the Mooney that someone said was just "North" of me.  No engine or not, I'd still be interested.  That said, I don't want mechanically retracts. I like the idea of a standard retract get knob

[jwilkins]

Quote: VAFlyGuy

Jim, money is an issue for me. I just bought a house right ON the airport I am at (KJYO). I mean, my balcony faces runway 17 where I can enjoy coffee in the morning and watch the takeoffs/landings.  I would like to find a plane I can afford and pay OFF in 5 years (not 10+) which limits me to about 30-40k range.  I want to get to a point where any further expenses are centered around upgrades, inspections and engine overhauls.  Like you I prefer flat panel displays over old gauges but with the limits I have there won't be much available that wont require tons of $$ to upgrade.

I'm really envious of your new home setting. It sounds like you have a vey reasonable plan in place for the plane. For the budget I'd look for a nice C model. It sounds like you are planning on what I actually did with my C; buy what you can afford and upgrade as cash is available. The total investment will be higher than buying already upgraded but if you pay-as-you-go it's a good path to getting what you want.

The only other comment I'd make is to not discount the manual gear. It's simple, has very few areas of concern, and really is easy to use if you put the gear up and down at the right airspeeds. It is simple elegent engineering that just works very well. I didn't choose the electric gear on the F; it was just what came on the plane I wanted to buy. 

Jim

[rbridges]

Quote: Shadrach

2 things.  

1) The plane that was mentioned to the North of you was likely mentioned in jest.  That is not something that a newby gets into without a lot support and mentoring from a very MX savvy pilot or IA. There's a good chance that an experience like that will sour you on ownership.

2) You really ougt to fly a manual gear bird before making that that call. Seriously...

[VAFlyGuy]

Roger that and thanks all. 

Can someone who uses manual retracts tell me how it works and at what speeds you're retracting and deploying them at?

TYVM!

[moodychief]

Retract at 85 mph or below and extend at max of 120 mph.  The Johnson bar is nothing more than a lever attached to the gear linkage.  It has a sliding part on the bar that you slide into a fitting on the floor to keep the gear retracted. When you extend the gear, you push the lever forward and slide the bar into the locking mechanism under the edge of the panel.

[1964-M20E]

Manual gear is the dream.  After takeoff about 100' and 80 – 90mph IAS pull the gear up with one continuous motion.  It is quick and easy.  Slow to 120mph IAS as you are entering the downwind put the gear down check the green light double check the J bar is locked in the top socket and you are ready to go.  Yes that little switch may be easier but this is more fun. :-)

[VAFlyGuy]

Are manual gear Mooneys more reliable than electric gear?

[moodychief]

Yes!  No electric motors to worry about failing.

Unless you somehow break your right arm during flight ....!

[rbridges]

Quote: VAFlyGuy

Are manual gear Mooneys more reliable than electric gear?

[DaV8or]

Quote: VAFlyGuy

 Jim, money is an issue for me. I just bought a house right ON the airport I am at (KJYO). I mean, my balcony faces runway 17 where I can enjoy coffee in the morning and watch the takeoffs/landings.  I would like to find a plane I can afford and pay OFF in 5 years (not 10+) which limits me to about 30-40k range.  I want to get to a point where any further expenses are centered around upgrades, inspections and engine overhauls.  Like you I prefer flat panel displays over old gauges but with the limits I have there won't be much available that wont require tons of $$ to upgrade.

I'll keep my eyes posted here and keep looking around.  The whole point of me getting a Mooney is to fly anywhere I want, any time I want in the least amount of time (which takes out most other aircraft, including Cessna -- and I don't like high wings due to bad visibility when trying to do pattern work).

[VAFlyGuy]

Quote: DaV8or

Not trying to scare you, just like piloting, you need to plan for the worst and leave yourself a way out.

[garytex]

Partners can be great or a real PITA.  Halving the fixed costs can be great.  Best match is one partner flys for business during the week, other for fun on the weekends.  Both partners need to have the outlook that they want to contribute a little extra in the things they are strong on, and thats after they have satisfied the letter and intent of the partnership regs.  Get a grownup, and you have to be a grownup.  And by that, I mean someone that understands how to get along.  Good partnerships are just about as rare as good marriages.  The AOPA sample partnership regs. are pretty good.

In your shoes I would look hard at the C models, I've seen some pretty good buys lately on a bang for the buck basis and they are in your price range.

[jetdriven]

Quote: VAFlyGuy

d and I'm not worried about. I have a line of credit that can cover the replacement of the engine, but that is why I wanted to try and find one that has low hours on the engine.  Anything with 1500+ hours means I get roughly 500 hours of flying before I have to spend 20k on a new engine. I was hoping to build hours first, spend some cash on the avionics and required inspections before I have to dump a load of cash on an engine rebuild.

I may also look for a partner as well to cut costs.  Still not sure about that...

[DaV8or]

Quote: jetdriven

You are always one oil filter cut from being out the 20K.  Regardless of hours.

[DaV8or]

Double Post-