CiES fuel senders & Mooney annunciator panel

[PeytonM]

My 1989 J is undergoing a panel upgrade. For those of you that incorporated CiES fuel level senders In theirs:
 
1) Will the CiES senders work with the Mooney  “Left Low Fuel” and “Right Low Fuel” idiot lights? I’m told the CiES technology is incompatible.

2) Will the wing fuel gauges still work?

3! Have you put in a new annunciator panel or designed your own solution?  Or just left it in for Gear lights, volts and start power, and pulled the bulbs for vacuum, ram air and the two fuel lights?

Thank you for your input. 

[kortopates]

My 1989 J is undergoing a panel upgrade. For those of you that incorporated CiES fuel level senders In theirs:
 
1) Will the CiES senders work with the Mooney  “Left Low Fuel” and “Right Low Fuel” idiot lights? I’m told the CiES technology is incompatible.
2) Will the wing fuel gauges still work?
3! Have you put in a new annunciator panel or designed your own solution?  Or just left it in for Gear lights, volts and start power, and pulled the bulbs for vacuum, ram air and the two fuel lights?
Thank you for your input. 

1) no, fuel levels and low warnings are now functions of your engine monitor
2) yes
3) still very relevant, just not for fuel. Most seem to keep it except for those that don’t want to spend $ for repairs - but they are very repairable and a big improvement on separate bulbs IMO.


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[Utah20Gflyer]

6 hours ago, PeytonM said:

My 1989 J is undergoing a panel upgrade. For those of you that incorporated CiES fuel level senders In theirs:
 
1) Will the CiES senders work with the Mooney  “Left Low Fuel” and “Right Low Fuel” idiot lights? I’m told the CiES technology is incompatible.

2) Will the wing fuel gauges still work?

3! Have you put in a new annunciator panel or designed your own solution?  Or just left it in for Gear lights, volts and start power, and pulled the bulbs for vacuum, ram air and the two fuel lights?

Thank you for your input. 

I just installed CIES senders in my plane a couple weeks ago.  As kortoplates said you have to have a device to process the signal coming from the CIES gauges and know when to indicate something like fuel quantity or a low fuel condition.  Unfortunately I don't think anyone has thought it worthwhile to make something that would be a bridge between a new digital device and the analog warning light as most digital devices can already provide their own warning.  

In my case I already had a JPI 800 which can't do fuel indication but already does a lot so I didn't want to spring for a new expensive primary engine monitor.  Instead I used an aerospace logic digital fuel gauge.  It was a little over 900 dollars and was a pretty simple install.  I wouldn't suggest using the old Mooney analog fuel gauges.  It will make calibration much more difficult and may in the end cost you more money than a new fuel gauge while giving inferior results.  

The aerospace logic gauge turns the fuel reading yellow at 8 gallons and red at 3 gallons.  Thats sufficient warning for me.  

Overall I love them, I had completely inop fuel gauges before and it's awesome to have that function back, and much more accurate than ever before. 

[Aerodon]

7 hours ago, PeytonM said:

My 1989 J is undergoing a panel upgrade. For those of you that incorporated CiES fuel level senders In theirs:
 
1) Will the CiES senders work with the Mooney  “Left Low Fuel” and “Right Low Fuel” idiot lights? I’m told the CiES technology is incompatible.

2) Will the wing fuel gauges still work?

3! Have you put in a new annunciator panel or designed your own solution?  Or just left it in for Gear lights, volts and start power, and pulled the bulbs for vacuum, ram air and the two fuel lights?

Thank you for your input. 

Depends, if you get the CiES resistive output transducers, they will do the same thing as your original transducers, including the output to the annunciator panel.  My low fuel lights work with the CiES transducers.

Now I am installing and EDM900,  it can still use the resistive CiES or the capacitive CiES transducers.  The EDM has on-screen low fuel warnings and 2 outputs for low fuel.  I doubt this will be compatible with the Mooney panel (unless you by-pass the internal circuits) but it will be compatible with external bulbs.

One of the challenges in making up a new annunciator 'row' is how to dim the lights.  I have a drawing somewhere from a late model Saratoga - they have a relay that provides multiple sound signals to ground, or through resistor to ground for dimming.  I am going to try making annunciators using the ridiculously expensive but nice Eaton labelled annunciators.

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

[rbp]

for those of you who no longer have the annunciators connected, have you placarded them INOP? 

[fuellevel]

While we don't talk about it or advertise - there is a low fuel programmable output on the sender.  This is enough power for an LED annunciator and can be a source or sink 

 

We don't talk about it as it was an OEM request and it is also used to close a valve for single point refuel  ( trigger level can be set for the whole range ) 

 

 

[rbp]

21 hours ago, fuellevel said:

While we don't talk about it or advertise - there is a low fuel programmable output on the sender.  This is enough power for an LED annunciator and can be a source or sink 

 

We don't talk about it as it was an OEM request and it is also used to close a valve for single point refuel  ( trigger level can be set for the whole range ) 

 

 

are there instructions / diagram? 

[fuellevel]

I am creating a white paper for it today for an OEM customer on a future military training aircraft - think Mooney Predator only newer.     The function was intended to support a helicopter application where is a FAA requirement  for a separate low fuel warning.    The FAA mandated that this would be a separate component,  but we were arguing,  that with a 90,000 MTTF (Mean Time to Failure) the intention of the requirement was that fuel quantity which had a historical less favorable MTTF,   that a separate low fuel warning was made to address this fact.    CiES had gone straight to the core issue so that low fuel could be a function of a singular component.    

Lots of head scratching as the Rotorcraft directorate,  had clearly indicated by revised law,  that fuel quantity did not live up to its functional requirement and a secondary warning of low fuel was necessary.    So unsurprisingly the Small Aircraft Directorate was unaware of this requirement, but indicated that Cessna (Textron) incorporating this was part of the restart aircraft, and they lauded that effort and credited it with a low number of fuel accidents in this group of aircraft.    

I will see if we want to share this     - let me know how popular this will be with the Mooney crowd 

On another note JPI has new software for fuel quantity   - if you have a JPI and are wondering why your fuel quantity with CiES isn't as good as some of the reports - this will help. 

 

[Niko182]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:44 AM, rbp said:

for those of you who no longer have the annunciators connected, have you placarded them INOP? 

I took mine out and simply made my own personal annunciation panel. I didnt want a bunch of annunciators for only 3 or 4 to be used.

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, fuellevel said:

I will see if we want to share this     - let me know how popular this will be with the Mooney crowd

I'm about 6 weeks away from my next panel redo and will be installing your fuel senders with the GI-275 EIS and would be very interested in this.

[Marc Taylor]

Just make sure your fuel gauges work through out the range of the gauge.  If you get a call from the FAA, they will make a point the aircraft does not meet flight standards if the fuel gauges fail to indicate the fuel quantity should the subject come up. They didn’t get too nasty because the other wing had enough fuel and correct indication for the completion of the flight, but said the plane should have been grounded where I had made a precautionary landing.  There had been two occasions where techs were working in the area of the sender and  the right wing was showing 3/4 tank of fuel.

[carusoam]

11 hours ago, fuellevel said:

I am creating a white paper for it today for an OEM customer on a future military training aircraft - think Mooney Predator only newer.     The function was intended to support a helicopter application where is a FAA requirement  for a separate low fuel warning.    The FAA mandated that this would be a separate component,  but we were arguing,  that with a 90,000 MTTF (Mean Time to Failure) the intention of the requirement was that fuel quantity which had a historical less favorable MTTF,   that a separate low fuel warning was made to address this fact.    CiES had gone straight to the core issue so that low fuel could be a function of a singular component.    

Lots of head scratching as the Rotorcraft directorate,  had clearly indicated by revised law,  that fuel quantity did not live up to its functional requirement and a secondary warning of low fuel was necessary.    So unsurprisingly the Small Aircraft Directorate was unaware of this requirement, but indicated that Cessna (Textron) incorporating this was part of the restart aircraft, and they lauded that effort and credited it with a low number of fuel accidents in this group of aircraft.    

I will see if we want to share this     - let me know how popular this will be with the Mooney crowd 

On another note JPI has new software for fuel quantity   - if you have a JPI and are wondering why your fuel quantity with CiES isn't as good as some of the reports - this will help. 

 

Great Ceis product support @fuellevel!

It is great to have you here!

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:14 PM, rbp said:

are there instructions / diagram? 

@fuellevel

[as350]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:23 AM, fuellevel said:

 

I will see if we want to share this     - let me know how popular this will be with the Mooney crowd 

 

 

CiES, yes please, make this a feature. I'm close to deciding on a multi-year panel upgrade path and would love to incorporate a low-fuel warning indication. 

BTW, I'm also in Bend and have a list of questions. Can I stop by your shop on Wilson in a few weeks?

[rbp]

12 hours ago, as350 said:

CiES, yes please, make this a feature. I'm close to deciding on a multi-year panel upgrade path and would love to incorporate a low-fuel warning indication. 

BTW, I'm also in Bend and have a list of questions. Can I stop by your shop on Wilson in a few weeks?

since he hasn't responded, I wrote Scott an email scott.philiben@ciescorp.com

 

[PT20J]

Not sure why one would need this. The electronic units would be used with some brand of engine monitor which should have alarm capability. If using the resistive units don’t they just interface with the Mooney gauges and annunciation? 

Skip

[rbp]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Not sure why one would need this. The electronic units would be used with some brand of engine monitor which should have alarm capability. If using the resistive units don’t they just interface with the Mooney gauges and annunciation? 

Skip

if you don't hook them up to the annunciators in the center stack, it raises the question if those two annunciators need to placarded INOP

[Niko182]

6 minutes ago, rbp said:

if you don't hook them up to the annunciators in the center stack, it raises the question if those two annunciators need to placarded INOP

Couldnt you just simply remove the cutout, essentially removing the low fuel part of the annunciator? Then theres nothing to be inop since the annunciation isnt there.

[PT20J]

4 minutes ago, rbp said:

if you don't hook them up to the annunciators in the center stack, it raises the question if those two annunciators need to placarded INOP

Maybe. However, Mooney included annunciator positions for options that are not installed with no placard (e.g., prop de-ice on mine). So, I just did what Mooney did and removed the bulbs for the unused positions. 

[fuellevel]

Sorry off on a short vacation for my brothers birthday 

While this is an approved TSO function - it now has to be an approved STC function  - the latest approval for STC was submitted in December 2020  - and is still in process  

The Columbia Aircraft had an annunciator similar to the Mooney - which I was a part of the design team.   This annunciator measured the voltage return from the senders and had a averaging function to eliminate spurious low fuel warnings due to fuel movement 

Charles Beck at International Avionics designed the Mooney Annunciator I am familiar with  -  Charles and I were friends before he passed on and we had similar ideas about the way fuel qty alerts should be handled.    However I don't know how the Mooney Annunciator actually works    - as there is a bit of electronics (knowing Charles) behind it 

I can take it on as a project - but I need to borrow an annunciator - (and is it one of many types )  so I can see if the output we have tSO'd is compatible.

To expedite approval (such as the FAA is lately) I will need also a volunteer to install this as a 337 field approval and copy the approval to us as "evidence" of successful completion.    

 

SO while I do have an annunciator out function and it has its own damping  -  does it plug and play well     I don't know right now. 

Let me know if you can help 

[rbp]

29 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Maybe. However, Mooney included annunciator positions for options that are not installed with no placard (e.g., prop de-ice on mine). So, I just did what Mooney did and removed the bulbs for the unused positions. 

good point

however, since they LOW FUEL annunciators are shipped working from the factory, i still wonder if they should be treated as "inoperative instruments" as per 91.213.  "Prop de-ice" was never enabled at the factory

 

admittedly this is a small point, but still curious

[201Mooniac]

I believe that instructions to remove the ram air did not have a requirement for placarding the annunciator panel where the ram air light used to be so I would expect this to be the same.

[rbp]

I talked to the Avionics guy and he said that the lightbulb should be removed so they don’t light up on the push-to- test

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, fuellevel said:

Sorry off on a short vacation for my brothers birthday 

While this is an approved TSO function - it now has to be an approved STC function  - the latest approval for STC was submitted in December 2020  - and is still in process  

The Columbia Aircraft had an annunciator similar to the Mooney - which I was a part of the design team.   This annunciator measured the voltage return from the senders and had a averaging function to eliminate spurious low fuel warnings due to fuel movement 

Charles Beck at International Avionics designed the Mooney Annunciator I am familiar with  -  Charles and I were friends before he passed on and we had similar ideas about the way fuel qty alerts should be handled.    However I don't know how the Mooney Annunciator actually works    - as there is a bit of electronics (knowing Charles) behind it 

I can take it on as a project - but I need to borrow an annunciator - (and is it one of many types )  so I can see if the output we have tSO'd is compatible.

To expedite approval (such as the FAA is lately) I will need also a volunteer to install this as a 337 field approval and copy the approval to us as "evidence" of successful completion.    

 

SO while I do have an annunciator out function and it has its own damping  -  does it plug and play well     I don't know right now. 

Let me know if you can help 

Maybe this will help. (From the M20J Service and Maintenance Manual). 

[carusoam]

Also some history…
 

When the long bodies were introduced…

The low level fuel light was set to come on based on a set number of gallons…

This system worked adequately well for the planes that came before it…

The number of gallons sounded good…

But at the FF of the LBs… the warning was essentially enough to find a good field to land in…  

 

The number of gallons warning was (I believe) increased after planes were already sold….

So.. make sure you have the right number of gallons for the most modern Low Level indicator…

In cruise…. My M20R is often burning about 15gph…

On the East coast… I pass an airport every 10-15 minutes…

What is the usual amount of time and gallons planes use for setting this warning?

Nice to have Scott P stop by! 

Best regards ,

-a-