Ovation traffic pattern

[KSMooniac]

Mooneys have very good control at 1.3 Vso speeds, which should be a nominal final approach speed.  I would suggest you switch instructors (perhaps try Don:  http://www.donkaye.com/Dons_Homepage/Bounced_Landings.html since he is only 1 state away) so that you don't end up as one of the many Acclaim prop strike statistics.

[sreid]

Michael,

I agree that there is absolutely no need, and it is not a typical technique, to extend speed brakes over the numbers and retract flaps at touchdown.  I'd hate to see your beautiful airplane dinged.  Consider a slower approach speed, not necessarily to reduce landing distance, although it will, but to put the airplane in the right attitude entering the flare and have low enough energy not to 'skip' or 'bounce' back in to the air after touching down.  This is what starts the porpoising that leads to prop strike.

Steve

[jetdriven]

If you float in the flare you were too fast, whether in a 152, an Acclaim, or a 747.  Popping out speedbrakes, raising flaps, or any other action like that over the numbers is a cover-up for poor technique and excess airspeed on final.  Flame on, but this is a basic airmanship thing.

[BorealOne]

Not much more to add to this thread - i'm usually 13-15"/2400 on downwind, targetting 120 before dropping gear before turning base. Notch of flaps, 100 established final, targetting 500 fpm descent and 80 over the fence with full flaps. At flare I like to be 75, with elevator trim all the way back. 80 is ok if winds require a bit more speed, but anything faster than 85 isn't pretty.

[RJBrown]

Quote: orangemtl

Not sure I can agree with 90 being too fast, with a single notch of flaps. Yes; one can use full flaps, but do I really want to float to the end of the runway? Similarly, I can use the brakes with vigor. Which I don't care to do.  Short fields are, of course an entirely different story.

One can use short field techniques on a longer runway: speed at 80-85, and full flaps.  Given plenty of room, I just don't see the utility in doing so.  I prefer more control, at my relatively early stage in aviation, rather than allowing for any mushiness with slower speeds. Someone with 1000 hours---or 3000, for that matter---may find that unnecessary, as they have a finely tuned sense of feel for the controls in their plane, in all circumstances of weather and approaches.  Mazel tov. I don't.  I like control. One day, several hundred hours from now, I'll have a diffferent relationship to the aircraft, as we all do. 

Call it a crutch if you like. I call it a tool. One may call me a 'tool' as well, for insisting upon my position. So be it. The plane will either approach stall speeds on final, or over the runway. I prefer 'B'.  Apologies for my rant.

[xftrplt]

Bravo!  Randy's above post is dead on.  Too bad it took so long to arrive. 

I wish I had had the integrity (cajoles, maybe?) to say it first, rather than thinking, "Where are the Bonanza's when you need them?"

[fantom]

Byron is giving you facts and Randy, who knows what he is, is correct. Develop poor flying habits now, and they will be hard to reverse in the future. 

Please take their advice.

[RJBrown]

Quote: fantom

Byron is giving you facts and Randy, who knows what he is, is correct. Develop poor flying habits now, and they will be hard to reverse in the future. 

Please take their advice.

[jetdriven]

with a 59 knot gross weight stall speed, 90 knots over the fence is 1.5 Vso !

[donkaye]

The Ovation or any long body Mooney from my experience (Approx 7,250 Mooney hours and 24,000 landings as a Mooney CFI) should be flown in the pattern in a no or low wind condition as follows:

Downwind is configured gear down and approach flaps at 90 knots (MP to maintain 90 knots; about 18-20").  When you're at a 3° angle to your aim point reduce throttle to about 14" MP, begin your base turn while adding full flaps and simultaneously trimming up to maintain your 3° glide path.  Due to the added drag of the flaps your speed will be reducing.  Maintain 80 knots on base and after turning final reduce speed to 75 knots (or less based on landing weight).  Maintain 75 knots using the elevator to control your speed and the power to control your rate of descent.  At about 8' simultaneously reduce power to idle while flaring at the same rate as you are reducing the throttle to idle.  The plane should touch down on the mains with the stall warning going off. The nose attitude at touchdown should be such that you can still see at least 2 runway center line strips ahead of you.  For every 300 pounds that you are under gross reduce you final approach speed by 5 knots.  With one person and 1 hours of fuel remaining, the minimum speed will be about 65 knots.  So with full flaps you should be going into the flare at between 75 and 65 knots depending on weight.  For no flaps add 10 knots.  Speed brakes are somewhat effective initially if deployed at touchdown.  I deploy them at touchdown.  If nothing else it looks "cool".  I've made a landing video for those interested.  Go to my website www.donkaye.com

 

[Ned Gravel]

From my own experience at CYYT in the winter if you are landing in icing and 20+ kts crosswinds conditions you better raise those flaps before touchdown. Otherwise you are going to end up weathervaning into the snow bank. The flaps in the Mooney create an air cushion below stall speed that reduces the rudder controllability and tires friction at the time of touch down. When there is no flaps your touch down speed is higher thus better rudder control and less lift (no float) thus more tire friction.

 

José

[aviatoreb]

Quote: donkaye

The Ovation or any long body Mooney from my experience (Approx 7,250 Mooney hours and 24,000 landings as a Mooney CFI) should be flown in the pattern in a no or low wind condition as follows:

Downwind is configured gear down and approach flaps at 90 knots (MP to maintain 90 knots; about 18-20").  When you're at a 3° angle to your aim point reduce throttle to about 14" MP, begin your base turn while adding full flaps and simultaneously trimming up to maintain your 3° glide path.  Due to the added drag of the flaps your speed will be reducing.  Maintain 80 knots on base and after turning final reduce speed to 75 knots (or less based on landing weight).  Maintain 75 knots using the elevator to control your speed and the power to control your rate of descent.  At about 8' simultaneously reduce power to idle while flaring at the same rate as you are reducing the throttle to idle.  The plane should touch down on the mains with the stall warning going off. The nose attitude at touchdown should be such that you can still see at least 2 runway center line strips ahead of you.  For every 300 pounds that you are under gross reduce you final approach speed by 5 knots.  With one person and 1 hours of fuel remaining, the minimum speed will be about 65 knots.  So with full flaps you should be going into the flare at between 75 and 65 knots depending on weight.  For no flaps add 10 knots.  Speed brakes are somewhat effective initially if deployed at touchdown.  I deploy them at touchdown.  If nothing else it looks "cool".  I've made a landing video for those interested.  Go to my website www.donkaye.com

 

[Awful_Charlie]

Numbers are so important to get the landing right, and moving to a Bravo from brand P, coping with the weight changes was something I wasn't used to.  I made up a crib sheet with the numbers on which lives on my knee board now.  Numbers in Grey come from the POH, those on white are interpolated.  Note than the speed for Approach at MTOW is in brackets. as it is above MLW!  If you want the whole spreadsheet ask (it is in Excel)

Ben

[andysmith11]

I have to echo other posters on here. 90kts over the numbers is waaayyy too fast. Not sure how else to say it, but with that kind of speed you are going to float, and float, and float. You may have lots of runway today to tolerate that, but what happens when you go into a shorter (note shortER, not short) field and you see runway getting eaten up in front of you as you float and float?

It's going to be hard to resist trying to force your Acclaim onto the runway, and with that kind of speed, it's going to get really ugly really quickly.

Get a a good Mooney instructor, do lots of slow flight and approach to landing stalls as Parker suggests. Mooney's handle well at low airspeeds.

Otherwise you may be looking at a new prop, engine tear down and inspection, new gear(s)....or worse.

Fly safe.

[CRLB]

Thanks all for the great discussion! I've got around 20 hours on my new-to-me O and I'm loving every minute of it.

Thanks especially to Don for his professional knowledge.

[fantom]

Pattern flying advise seen in n FBO restroom: