Night Flying

[orangemtl]

Quote: flyboy0681

 I bet, and just like the desert now idea where you could safely put it down if you had too. At least we do have a road or two, if you are in the right area, and someone is driving on it to light it up for you.

[RJBrown]

2 things in this thread I want to respond to.

To restrict yourself to 1000' ceiling defeats the reason we got an IFR rating. There are many times that clear blue skies are just 500' (or less) up. A marine layer, a little fog, or a temperature inversion may be all that lies between you and a beautiful flight. To wait for ceilings to raise or fog to burn off can make a flight less safe by flying into developing weather later.

Night flight into total darkness is IFR conditions. Flying around a metro area with all that light is easy and I think fun. The toughest "IFR" flight I ever made was 3am over Kansas on a severe clear moonless night. The stars and the few lights on the ground blended together. Over water would be even worse. I believe that is what got JFK Jr.

Night VFR is one of the reasons we all should get the IFR rating.

[bnicolette]

Quote: RJBrown

To restrict yourself to 1000' ceiling defeats the reason we got an IFR rating. There are many times that clear blue skies are just 500' (or less) up. A marine layer, a little fog, or a temperature inversion may be all that lies between you and a beautiful flight. To wait for ceilings to raise or fog to burn off can make a flight less safe by flying into developing weather later.

Night VFR is one of the reasons we all should get the IFR rating.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Bnicolette

Randy, what are your personal ceiling minimums and if you do have them why did you come up with that number?  How about takeoff visibility?

How about others on the board?  Obviously we all fly the conditions and these numbers are not "hard and fast" rules but more of a starting point and then we'll look at the other factors.

Flying by myself, IFR mins per the FAR's.  I typically shoot 15-20 precision approaches a month in dark IMC conditions, so I'm proficient enough to be comfortable in that environment.  However....

With wife and kids on board, it depends on the instrument approaches the destination airfield has.  If my destination has an ILS or other precision approach then I use 600/1.  For airports with only a non precision or GPS (non WAAS) approach, I use 1000-1 or the non precision mins whichever is higher…And always no convective activity in the area.  I want to keep flying fun and devoid of stress for the family.  Bouncing around in convective turbulence, having to divert due to weather, or breaking out at 200 and 1/2 is not fun for my non pilot spouse. 

As an aside, I think “personal” mins are a good thing, esp if someone hasn’t flown hard IFR for a while.  Yes, and instrument rated pilot should be able to manage single piloted precision approach down to minimums while partial panel, but lets face it…Unless a pilot is current and proficient doing that is extremely difficult.  If a pilot is current, but not proficient enough to fly to ATP or checkride standards, then allowing an extra safety buffer is probably a good thing.  My personal mins are of course my own.  My opinions are purely subjective and based solely on my experience, comfort level, currency, proficiency and the courtesy I wish to extend to my spouse.  Others mileage might vary. 

[jetdriven]

Wow.  You will fly to IFR mins but not at night. But you land on carriers for a living, argualbly the most risky flying on the planet. 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetdriven

Wow.  You will fly to IFR mins but not at night. But you land on carriers for a living, argualbly the most risky flying on the planet. 

[Hank]

I've been flying single-engine piston at night since I was a student pilot. My non-pilot wife even rode in the backseat of the Slowhawk on my student dual night cross-country as her first flight with me.

[Hank]

I've been flying single-engine piston at night since I was a student pilot. My non-pilot wife even rode in the backseat of the Slowhawk on my student dual night cross-country as her first flight with me. I

[Hank]

I've been flying single-engine piston at night since I was a student pilot. My non-pilot wife even rode in the backseat of the Slowhawk on my student dual night cross-country as her first flight with me. I am

[Hank]

I've been flying single-engine piston at night since I was a student pilot. My non-pilot wife even rode in the backseat of the Slowhawk on my student dual night cross-country as her first flight with me. I am careful

[Hank]

I've been flying single-engine piston at night since I was a student pilot. My non-pilot wife even rode in the backseat of the Slowhawk on my student dual night cross-country as her first flight with me. I am careful about weather and avoid convective activity, which is much easier when flying above the layer--I often find that 10,000 msl works nicely. So far, no night IFR, but I've made evening descents through the crud that made the landing light  nice to have for arrival.

[xftrplt]

 

I used to be fairly cavalier re night S/E (recip) ops,  but a comment from a 40-year friend--a five-time shuttle pilot/commander, who made one launch after the Challenger disaster (clearly, no shrinking violet)--made me rethink my attitude. Namely, he won't fly his 201 over wide areas of low ceilings, even DVFR.  Just a thought. 

 

[Hank]

Quote: xftrplt

a comment from a 40-year friend--he won't fly his 201 over wide areas of low ceilings, even DVFR.  YMMV.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: xftrplt

I used to be fairly cavalier re night S/E (recip) ops,  but a comment from a 40-year friend--a five-time shuttle pilot/commander, who made one launch after the Challenger disaster (clearly, no shrinking violet)--made me rethink my attitude. Namely, he won't fly his 201 over wide areas of low ceilings, even DVFR.  YMMV.

[bnicolette]

George I really like your explanation!  I think most professional pilots look at it as risk management, athough yours is a lot "higher" risk.  Holy cow!!  I flew Falcons, Sabreliners, Citations and Learjets out of a 4000' runway for 10 years at least three days a week.  Sometimes that littel runway looked like a Carrier at night in the winter time!!  Kudos to you..........I'm in awe of what you guys do.  And BTW..............THANK YOU!

One thing I can't seem to wrap my mind around is that some folks will fly from takeoff to landing with a 200' ceiling, some will take off 0/0 and fly an entire route with "low" ceilings, but won't fly at night?  What is the difference here?

And I am most definitely on the limited night (highway) during most of route and no "low" IFR.  Just my particular brand of single engine risk management.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: GeorgePerry

Naval Aviators are by definition professional risk managers.  We do it constantly in our day to day jobs flying fighters in combat, over hostile territory and on & off the carrier.  I personally know 4 other hornet drivers who own Mooneys and non of us fly them at night.  As always, others mileage might vary.

[GeorgePerry]

aviatoreb,

The simple answer is what I fly for my day job, is a completely different animal than a Mooney.  It's hard to compare the safety built into redundant systems, twin jet engines, quad digital fly by wire systems with backups to backups (not to mention a really good ejection seat).  Mooney's and most GA aircraft enjoy non of these risk diminishing system redundancies and if you ignore mission sets, are "riskier" to fly.

As for IFR conditions during daylight hours...Bottom line is if you can see what your about to hit you have a much better chance of survival than not, which is the case at night.  Even with only 500 feet of VFR glide before landing, odds are you can find something that doesn't look too bad to come into contact with. (at least over non mountainous terrain)  However, when one discusses the nuance of risk mitigation and risk management there are no absolutes...It's a balance between many factors some of which are: Experience, currency, proficiency, risk, safety, utility, mission, and need. 

I have my guidelines and I view each trip as a unique evolution.  No two trips are the same.  Mother Nature sees fit to that. Each trip requires thorough preflight preparation and planning.  For instance, if my entire route was 200 1/2 I would probably not go.  If I had to take off in weather above the non-precision mins for my departure airport, I probably would not go.  If you give me a specific scenario with a specific set of circumstances I can give you an answer, but the bottom line is "it depends".  We can debate the merits of risk management indefinitely, but the inevitable conclusion for such a debate is that each pilot has to decide where his or her comfort level, currency and proficiency allows them to operate.  I have a set of guidelines that works for me.  Others mileage might vary.

 

[bnicolette]

Well said George.  Fly or don't fly the conditions!!

[RJBrown]

I don't have any hard fast numbers for personal minimums. Each flight has it's own set of conditions. A 300' ceiling at CRQ caused by a morning marine layer is not the same as a 300' ceiling tops to 10,000' on a cold January morning at APA. Morning fog, a temperature inversion or a marine layer can all create low ceiling accompanied by severe clear less than 1000' up. To me those are non issues. I can be above the murk before I leave the boundaries of the airport. Conversely there are times that are legally VRF and I stay grounded. Oct of 2010 I was in St George UT. Tops to the east were about 20,000 and no way was I launching. I drove home and back because of the weather. Each situation has it's own hazards that must be addressed individually.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: GeorgePerry

aviatoreb,

The simple answer is what I fly for my day job, is a completely different animal than a Mooney.  It's hard to compare the safety built into redundant systems, twin jet engines, quad digital fly by wire systems with backups to backups (not to mention a really good ejection seat).  Mooney's and most GA aircraft enjoy non of these risk diminishing system redundancies and if you ignore mission sets, are "riskier" to fly.

As for IFR conditions during daylight hours...Bottom line is if you can see what your about to hit you have a much better chance of survival than not, which is the case at night.  Even with only 500 feet of VFR glide before landing, odds are you can find something that doesn't look too bad to come into contact with. (at least over non mountainous terrain)  However, when one discusses the nuance of risk mitigation and risk management there are no absolutes...It's a balance between many factors some of which are: Experience, currency, proficiency, risk, safety, utility, mission, and need. 

I have my guidelines and I view each trip as a unique evolution.  No two trips are the same.  Mother Nature sees fit to that. Each trip requires thorough preflight preparation and planning.  For instance, if my entire route was 200 1/2 I would probably not go.  If I had to take off in weather above the non-precision mins for my departure airport, I probably would not go.  If you give me a specific scenario with a specific set of circumstances I can give you an answer, but the bottom line is "it depends".  We can debate the merits of risk management indefinitely, but the inevitable conclusion for such a debate is that each pilot has to decide where his or her comfort level, currency and proficiency allows them to operate.  I have a set of guidelines that works for me.  Others mileage might vary.

 

[M016576]

Quote: GeorgePerry

aviatoreb,

The simple answer is what I fly for my day job, is a completely different animal than a Mooney.  It's hard to compare the safety built into redundant systems, twin jet engines, quad digital fly by wire systems with backups to backups (not to mention a really good ejection seat).  Mooney's and most GA aircraft enjoy non of these risk diminishing system redundancies and if you ignore mission sets, are "riskier" to fly.

As for IFR conditions during daylight hours...Bottom line is if you can see what your about to hit you have a much better chance of survival than not, which is the case at night.  Even with only 500 feet of VFR glide before landing, odds are you can find something that doesn't look too bad to come into contact with. (at least over non mountainous terrain)  However, when one discusses the nuance of risk mitigation and risk management there are no absolutes...It's a balance between many factors some of which are: Experience, currency, proficiency, risk, safety, utility, mission, and need. 

I have my guidelines and I view each trip as a unique evolution.  No two trips are the same.  Mother Nature sees fit to that. Each trip requires thorough preflight preparation and planning.  For instance, if my entire route was 200 1/2 I would probably not go.  If I had to take off in weather above the non-precision mins for my departure airport, I probably would not go.  If you give me a specific scenario with a specific set of circumstances I can give you an answer, but the bottom line is "it depends".  We can debate the merits of risk management indefinitely, but the inevitable conclusion for such a debate is that each pilot has to decide where his or her comfort level, currency and proficiency allows them to operate.  I have a set of guidelines that works for me.  Others mileage might vary.

 

[David Mazer]

Despite the opinions of the very experienced multi-engine jet pilots, the statistics don't support them.  In my day job I see others back off and back off from the statistically supported choices because they haven't been close to those choices for awhile and are now uncomfortable there.  I understand that and when you aren't comfortable there, you shouldn't go there.  It doesn't change what the statistics support, just your comfort level.  It is no different with a pilot who flies with backup on backup on backup so long that they become unfamiliar with the statistics without the backups and won't go there anymore.

Research on people buying insurances shows that people believe something will happen to them, so they buy insurance, or it won't happen to them, so they don't.  There isn't really any gray area.  A good example is life insurance vs disability insurance.  A person is 3 times more likely to need disability insurance than life insurance during their working carrer but few buy disability insurance because it won't really happen to me.  Apparently pilots make flying decisions in the same way.

Night flying is more dangerous than day flying, IMC is more dangerous than VMC, especially if you aren't IFR rated, and multi-engine operations is more dangerous than single engine operation in less current pilots.  None of these facts lead to the next step that single engine operations at night or IMC is more dangerous because it is a single engine airplane.  Multi-engine operations are, statistically, only safer in very current pilots flying in situations where landing is impractical (that would of course be nights, mountains, and water) for significant periods of time (I think the open ocean with a postage stamp runway on the top of a moving carrier would qualify).  The key components of that statement leaves most of us out - very current and significant periods of time - as only 2% of GA flying is at night and most GA pilots hardly make 100 hrs a year.  The likelihood of catastrophic failure in a plane designed to function after it is shot at has to be considered as well.  However, hearing this from a guy (me) that found a through and through bullet hole in the right wing of my amphibious airplane last year, any plane might get shot at and hit!

I love flying at night.  The statistics support that I am, overall, safer in a single with my small proportion of flight under those conditions than a multi-engine airplane.  I hope I prove you all wrong and never, ever have a problem at night or in IMC as a result of my single engine, or for any other reason for that matter.

 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: M016576

+1. 

 

Do I count as one of the four now that I'm in the ANG, or does that void my Naval Aviator status?  Hey... the F-15 has a hook too!

[orangemtl]

One guy flies F18's for a living; another flies F15s on weekends.....

Lucky b---------ds...

Thanks to both of you, and to your colleagues. My respect exceeds (barely) my envy!

[David Mazer]

Today, as on all days, we owe our thanks for all the great things we have in our country to those that fight for our freedoms.