Power settings/optimal speed for commercial maneuvers in a M20M

[Top Heavy]

I am practicing commercial maneuvers, lazy eights and Chantelle’s, in anticipation of the commercial check ride. The POH says that the maneuvering speed for the M20M is 127 knots. This speed makes it very difficult to achieve 5 knots above stall speed at the apex of the maneuver and getting back to 127 knots at the completion of the maneuver. I would appreciate any insights into the realistic, optimal speed / power settings to initiate these maneuvers.

[adverseyaw]

Slower than you'd think for most maneuvers. I did my commercial in a J and most entry speeds were either 100 or 115 knots. The Bravo speeds may be a hair faster, owing to the weight, but in general you'll fly speeds that seem unusually slow compared to normal cruise flight.

[adverseyaw]

Here are the power settings for my M20J. Not exactly what you're looking for but hopefully helpful.

• Steep turns: 100kts, 17" MP
• Accelerated stalls: < 95kts
• Chandelles: 115kts
• Lazy eights: 115kts
• Eights on pylons: 100kts
• Power-off 180s: fly downwind at best glide speed

In particular, if you try to fly accelerated stalls anywhere near Va, you'll have to pull crazy hard to get the stall to happen. Fly it at a much lower speed so you can induce the stall without anyone losing their lunch.

[gsxrpilot]

34 minutes ago, adverseyaw said:

Here are the power settings for my M20J. Not exactly what you're looking for but hopefully helpful.

• Steep turns: 100kts, 17" MP
• Accelerated stalls: < 95kts
• Chandelles: 115kts
• Lazy eights: 115kts
• Eights on pylons: 100kts
• Power-off 180s: fly downwind at best glide speed

In particular, if you try to fly accelerated stalls anywhere near Va, you'll have to pull crazy hard to get the stall to happen. Fly it at a much lower speed so you can induce the stall without anyone losing their lunch.

This is almost exactly the same power settings I flew for the Commercial check ride in my 252... still not a Bravo, but is a turbo.

[Niko182]

Pylon 8s were at 110 knots. 13 2300rpm

Lazy 8s were at 115 knots. 15 in 2400rpm

Steep turns at around 115 to 120 knots. also something like 14 to 16 inches and a low prop rpm.

Chandelles 120 knots. These ended with a pretty steep angle in pitch.

 

[Top Heavy]

Thank you so much. This is exactly what I was looking for. I will check them out Tuesday and let you know how I did. Maneuvering speed (127 knots) was unworkable.

 

[carusoam]

TH,

Where did you get using Maneuvering speed guidance from?

I get the feeling, that using performance numbers in general... then applying to Mooneys specifically, may not work so well...

 

Similar to having a non Mooney mechanic do a PPI...

Or not using a Mooney CFI for transition training...

There are enough differences between Mooney and all other planes....Most of us found the Mooney because of what it does...

It does things differently than the other planes...

If you like...

• Speed 
• Efficiency
• instrument platform
• commercial maneuvers

Go Mooney!

Get the best details from Mooney specific...

• Community
• mechanics
• CFIIs

Good luck with your next steps...

Let us know how it goes...

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

I actually just remembered I logged the data from my commercial checkride on cirrus report, So you can have the exact data I used on the checkride which I luckily passed. Heres all the data and the link. You can select everything from Altitude/airspeed/VSI, to what the CHT and EGTs were, and what my fuel flow was for that given flight. If you have a PFD with a SD slot, you can record all your flights on cirrusreport.com. I highly recommend it.

https://cirrusreports.com/flights/N9152Q/2080752

Pattern work = 12:54 - 13:40

Chandelle (Left) 13:46 - 13:49
Entry Speed 110 knots
MP: (WOT) 25 in
RPM: 2450

Steep turn 13:49 - 13:51
Entry speed 100 knots
MP: 13.6 in
RPM: 2440

Spiral Descent 13:52 - 13:55
Entry Speed 80 knots
MP: 7 in (Idle)
RPM: 1400 RPM (Idle)

Chandelle (Right) 13:55 - 13:58
Entry Speed 105 knots
MP: (WOT) 26.5 in
RPM: 2470

Pylon Eights 14:01 - 14:04
Entry Speed 110 knots
MP: 13.6 in
RPM: 2450 - 2530 RPM (seems like it varied a tad bit)

These values are from a Mooney Eagle with 310HP. Aircraft weight was around 2700 - 2800 lbs. A good tip regarding the CPL is during the exam, Speed is your enemy. Speed is your friend if your in a 172, but even if you're using 50 percent power in the long bodies, its going to be too much for the majority of the maneuvers. The CPL is a fantastic rating to get in your Mooney and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who currently owns a Mooney, whether they decide to get paid to fly or they're paying to fly. It will make you significantly more comfortable on the edge of the envelope, and it will teach you the systems you should know, that a lot of us forget over time. On top of that traveling has been limited for a lot of us anyway due to covid. Make the best of these time and knock out that rating. The CPL is a fun rating that isn't that hard to get. Good luck @Top Heavy. I'm sure you'll do fine on you exam. Hope this helps.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Niko182

[adverseyaw]

46 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Where did you get using Maneuvering speed guidance from?

This is common -- in absence of better guidance, commercial applicants seem to pick Va for these maneuvers . The ACS is quiet on airspeeds and the only time it mentions something specific, it's Va. I don't think anyone is doing it out of great scrutiny, it's just the first airspeed they see and Va is indeed a relevant airspeed in maneuvers (just not the best one in these cases). Pilots flying slower planes have an easier time getting away with it.

[Top Heavy]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:22 PM, carusoam said:

TH,

Where did you get using Maneuvering speed guidance from?

I get the feeling, that using performance numbers in general... then applying to Mooneys specifically, may not work so well...

 

Similar to having a non Mooney mechanic do a PPI...

Or not using a Mooney CFI for transition training...

There are enough differences between Mooney and all other planes....Most of us found the Mooney because of what it does...

It does things differently than the other planes...

If you like...

• Speed 
• Efficiency
• instrument platform
• commercial maneuvers

Go Mooney!

Get the best details from Mooney specific...

• Community
• mechanics
• CFIIs

Good luck with your next steps...

Let us know how it goes...

Best regards,

-a-

The recommendation for “Maneuvering speed or cruise speed, whichever is less” comes from the FAA publication “Aircraft Flying Handbook” chapter 9, Maximum Performance Maneuvers.

[jlunseth]

I don't have a Bravo I have a 231, so I won't venture into power settings, but there was one interesting phenomenon, mainly with Lazy 8's, caused by the slickness of the airframe. On the descent side of the Lazy 8 you can't just push the nose over and dive, which is the advice you will read alot on the internet. That might work with a Piper or Cessna, but the Mooney airframe picks up too much speed and you will bust your speed limit at the bottom. You might be over speed but within limits on the first Lazy 8, but you will bust speed on the second or third. Instead, you have to let the airframe fall, it is somewhere between a nose over dive and a stall attitude. There is a distinct change in the noise, you can hear the wind rush as the airframe falls. Best to find a really good instructor who can show it to you.