Trio Pro Pilot For M20 Mooneys

[jazztheglass]

On 1/7/2019 at 5:33 PM, Kris_Adams said:

for sure...too many times I heard this was a side hustle...no thanks.  Best of luck to them though

yea- no me saying you have another job is a little bit of a red flag

[ragedracer1977]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:10 AM, Navi said:

 

To your comments..

I think you can read the forum without registering.. like this one..  Register to post etc.

Any aircraft is a bear to install stuff in the tail, and the Mooney design is worse than most.. but one manufacturer has chosen to..

My choice was between the Trio and the TruTrak, I don't have the budget for the Garmin or others. But, I , also, have invested significantly in my aircraft since acquisition..

Trio/STC Group know there is a market out there.. but... when the business plan includes the Mooney market study starting on Sat Evening and ending early Monday Afternoon...

I suspect most late model Mooneys will end up with the Garmin, but the other (majority)  will be candidates for the lower cost  options..

Ignore the Piper stuff in the thread. It is however,  an education in the issues surrounding getting STCs, marketing and engineering, and will give you a lot of essential info if you are going to spend hard earned dollars on an Autopilot. It is also an insight into what is happening in this market now.

Not only do you have to register to read posts there, you also have to pay.

[Sandman993]

7 hours ago, jazztheglass said:

now that's funny!

I offered to send him 10k to help out... he wouldn’t except... what he needs to know is, the mooney crowd will take a look with interest. Paul explained to me in his own way, he doesn’t at this time even get a paycheck from the endeavor and in fact, at times finds himself funding parts of this out of his own pocket. I for one believe he is bringing a much needed service and an alternative to our wing group. I very much appreciate it.

 

Some of this reminds me of the engine overhaul posts I offered some months ago... when several here offered some hard, fast opinions about a company with which they had no known  dealings. I found Paul at the stc group to be personable, knowledgeable and I continue to appreciate the notion that he wants to help the mooney community. 

 

Someone once said... “if you want to end up with a million dollars in the aviation business, start out with 2 million.”

[orionflt]

I'm not sure what Paul is looking for from the aviation community, I have emailed and talked to him several times myself. I have offered my aircraft time and resources, understandably he has turned me down every time due to my location to him but I know I am not the only Mooney owner to show interest. he also has to remember that although Moonyspacers make a large number of Mooney owners we do not represent everyone and a lot of people who are interested may not be on here or just did not log in during the short period of time he used to try to gauge interest. I hope that Paul reconsiders his time line for the Mooney STC, as I stated before I liked the Trio over the trutrak and Garmin isn't even looking at the short body Mooneys.

Brian

[David_H]

I've read through the entire thread line-by-line and have seen nothing but interest expressed for autopilots from everyone that commented. A quick search (using any search engine) by anyone wanting to step into the Mooney AP game would have easily uncovered significant interest.

I guess I'm at a complete lack of understanding of what support was being sought.

The comment about not wanting to compete was very unsettling for me. How would that same mindset work if it accompanied a product that was a sole-solution with no competition?

Saying: 'I'm here to help, not to make a profit'... then basically saying: 'I'm outta here' was very strange.

[Navi]

39 minutes ago, David_H said:

I've read through the entire thread line-by-line and have seen nothing but interest expressed for autopilots from everyone that commented. A quick search (using any search engine) by anyone wanting to step into the Mooney AP game would have easily uncovered significant interest.

I guess I'm at a complete lack of understanding of what support was being sought.

The comment about not wanting to compete was very unsettling for me. How would that same mindset work if it accompanied a product that was a sole-solution with no competition?

Saying: 'I'm here to help, not to make a profit'... then basically saying: 'I'm outta here' was very strange.

Hi David_H...

I believe the "Mooney Market" for a reasonably priced Autopilot is there..

As a poster pointed out earlier, the gross numbers pale in front of the Cessna 17X - 18X models, and then the Pipers..  but Mooneys are next.

However, the perception is that Mooneys are fast travelling machines, and I would expect a higher percentage of the owners would have a greater hunger for an autopilot than  owners of the PA-28s and 172s... Many of the P and C number's are in the training  sector.  I have never encountered a Mooney trainer...

In short, it's worth doing right after those Cessnas and Pipers.  So.. the expected process is being followed by TruTrak, Dynon and Garmin, no surprise..  

Nobody can figure out what Trio is doing. The initial "Pent up Demand" market for the Cessnas and Pipers is over. TruTrak has taken that, estimates are as high as 95% of the APs going into this market are born in the TT factory. They are now producing at maximum capacity and barely  keeping  up with the demand (with a significant backlog of orders) , and moving to a larger facility this spring. The user and knowledge base is large and growing rapidly,  - some  shops have already done more than 20 installs and are offering  "installed and out the door" pricing.

Trio is now "judging serious demand " as you have read here.. but , as you have also read here, has already  "completed the engineering study""....  ???  …   Say what? 

Garmin is also a "non starter" in this market, Their AP is too expensive and they are very aloof in stating what and when for other markets. Not many are waiting on them unless they already have a legacy AP and want to upgrade or have high performance aircraft that need  features like ASI select.

I have owned or had a vested interest in 14 Businesses over my working years..   I can assure you  "profit" is necessary. A profit is essential for any company to be around in the future to support the product. Without a profit, the resources (and enthusiasm) of individual investors WILL run out ... This SHOULD be a given before anybody invests real money into the purchase of any product. It can become very difficult,...... ask a Saturn owner....

>>Saying: 'I'm here to help, not to make a profit'... then basically saying: 'I'm outta here' was very strange.

The rest of the story  is even stranger..  I was also considering  the Trio solution until it all imploded last year.. The story is all there on other forums..  

Sorry for the ramble, but it's -18C here and I am staying indoors... 

Nav

[Sandman993]

Wish I would have stayed indoors... instead I lost L mag while going for that elusive $100 hamburger... lucky me! 

The smell will leave the flight deck eventually I’m told. Just kidding... didn’t stink up the joint, but ready to start that thread on electronic ignition!!!

No likey Siamese magneto... it’s plum exciting to wonder if whatever took one side out is tumbling around in there looking for the other side! Mag overhauled 261 flight hrs ago.

Maybe that mag inventer guy will come here looking for his market so we can give him a hard time.

[Sandman993]

The mooney is a touring airplane... first and foremost. I agree with the notion the 172 and the piper 140 isn’t going to set the market ablaze buying autopilots to fly circles around their home airport.

[David_H]

I hoped this would be another good solution that could spill over to the Mooney AP market.

I can't say I've actively kept up with how the Cessna and Piper AP market has developed with a very high level of detail. However, I've tried to somewhat pay attention in hopes the successes would roll over to other certificated markets as well. Gauging market interest at this point seems rather odd to me given how the known AP market has progressed over the last couple of years.

If there isn't much of an AP market after the Mooney and one doesn't have a desire to compete for market-share... well, that's a very tough position to be in. Perhaps they'll figure it all out, but I can't say my confidence level is very high.

[Navi]

One thing that skewed the numbers was the commonality of parts and design of the Piper models...

Mr. Piper was very adept at bolting on different wings and engines to make very different airplanes... Every Cessna model is completely different..  Turns out that the areas where the TruTrak Servos mount are virtually identical across the Piper fleet.  Not so with the Trio servos and some others. The Trio pitch servo mounts to the stabilitator balance beam in the standard Piper fuselage, and that leaves  all the T-Tails waiting for another design. Last I heard, the roll servo mount is different for the straight wings and the taper wings. Many variations are expensive to design , produce and support .

I understand that the TT for the Mooney fits all variations under a blanket STC. Their Mooney has been test flown and the STC approval is imminent. If this is accurate, they will be first off the mark for the Mooney crew by a huge margin. They identified the market for the Mooney  and placed it in the business plan a long time ago..

Anyone here know what the next aircraft  model would be after the Mooneys?  (Based on fleet numbers)

Nav

[Navi]

1 hour ago, Sandman993 said:

The mooney is a touring airplane... first and foremost. I agree with the notion the 172 and the piper 140 isn’t going to set the market ablaze buying autopilots to fly circles around their home airport.

But they did!  A surprising number of 140s are getting them!

Lots are being installed, and the Cherokee Arrows, Daks, 235s, 236s, Togas and "6"s are fast haulers. They can't catch a Mooney, but....

Many older ones have Century Is, IIs and IIIs and are ready for replacement..  Some are installing a new AP for less than the repair estimates for their S-Tex's .

It's a new world...

Nav

[Navi]

1 hour ago, David_H said:

I hoped this would be another good solution that could spill over to the Mooney AP market.

I can't say I've actively kept up with how the Cessna and Piper AP market has developed with a very high level of detail. However, I've tried to somewhat pay attention in hopes the successes would roll over to other certificated markets as well. Gauging market interest at this point seems rather odd to me given how the known AP market has progressed over the last couple of years.

If there isn't much of an AP market after the Mooney and one doesn't have a desire to compete for market-share... well, that's a very tough position to be in. Perhaps they'll figure it all out, but I can't say my confidence level is very high.

>>>If there isn't much of an AP market after the Mooney and one doesn't have a desire to compete for market-share... well, that's a very tough position to be in. Perhaps they'll figure it all out, but I can't say my confidence level is very high.

 

There are several other markets..

The Comanches and Twincos, Bonanzas, and some Cessnas. Grumman seems to have a following.  The numbers are not very large but they are there..

The successes will come from offering upgrades and optional features and integrations with other products. "Trade in (up? ) your XXX for the new XXX + with YYY feature! "   The necessary element for this to work and continue is a large enough "installed base" established in the beginning.. Another would be offering a "trade-in " value for your old S-Tec (or whatever)  AP parts/ servos. Would not have to be much to increase your market share.   Look what Avidyne is doing to Garmin now..

There is more to come!

Nav

[Sandman993]

I’ve been on the flight deck with an avidyne... they seem to be a great gps with excellent features. If you have a 430w and want to move up, while not making big changes to the panel, the avidyne is a no brainer. Replacing a 430w is practically plug and play and I’ll wager the option gives garmin the red hiny. There is roughly 100,000 430s out there and garmin will soon stop supporting those. While there may be a small re-market for legacy autopilots as parts... I doubt there would be much enthusiasm to offer discounts for trade in. But one can dream.

[Sandman993]

9 hours ago, Navi said:

But they did!  A surprising number of 140s are getting them!

Lots are being installed, and the Cherokee Arrows, Daks, 235s, 236s, Togas and "6"s are fast haulers. They can't catch a Mooney, but....

Many older ones have Century Is, IIs and IIIs and are ready for replacement..  Some are installing a new AP for less than the repair estimates for their S-Tex's .

It's a new world...

Nav

Those Piper wings are awesome! Lol

[Navi]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 12:33 PM, Sandman993 said:

I can't access the link without registering with piper forum...just not that interested in p planes for the most part and besides...it's like riding a moped, they might be fun, but you don't want anyone to see you doing it!

I do however remember in the conversation, something about Piper being a real gem to install stuff in the tail...anyway, if you want to be dominated by one powerful avionics company (I don't) and left with, but one choice for your avionics needs, then keep needling the startups. That's the way Microsoft works and why we barely have a choice in the computer marketplace at this point.

I am rooting for alternatives to everything...as a pilot, I'll take all the options I can get, in the air and on the ground. What Paul needs to know is, there are a bunch, perhaps thousands of Mooney aircraft out there, and I'll wager a good potential market share of private owners, who would be elated to find an affordable, digital autopilot with everything built into one unit, instead of the " oh wait, you have to buy this, this, this and that thing for it to function".

 

So pay the big man his 25k if that's what you think...but I prefer virtually the same thing for half or less and this might be just be what the doctor ordered. Don't forget, these autopilots have been used successfully in the experimental category for almost two decades. So, I continue to look forward to the replacement of my dated autopilot and the sooner the better. Please don't think of me a tightwad, have already invested over 70k on top of initial acquisition price in 4 yrs...

This is my ship...there are many like it, but this one is mine...or something like that

 

 

>>I can't access the link without registering with piper forum...

Sandman, my apologies.. I was mistaken, you do have to register/subscribe..

It has been a while and I had forgotten.. (I attend 5 forums)

(Nav hangs head and shuffles feet)  :(

 

 

[carusoam]

@Navi

What brings you to MooneySpace?

Keeping up with one forum can keep a guy busy. Five? 

Best regards,

-a-

[Navi]

13 hours ago, Sandman993 said:

I’ve been on the flight deck with an avidyne... they seem to be a great gps with excellent features. If you have a 430w and want to move up, while not making big changes to the panel, the avidyne is a no brainer. Replacing a 430w is practically plug and play and I’ll wager the option gives garmin the red hiny. There is roughly 100,000 430s out there and garmin will soon stop supporting those. While there may be a small re-market for legacy autopilots as parts... I doubt there would be much enthusiasm to offer discounts for trade in. But one can dream.

Ya.. it was a mis-step by Garmin. They really left the back door open on that one..  They have been playing catchup on the feature list with Garmin for some time..

The "plugin " upgrade of the Avidyne into the old Garmin tray was a brilliant marketing move. The new Garmin dependence on the almost all "touch screen" was another trip.  Garmin stopped making the 430 and 530 trays so buyers of the used 430 could not buy a tray to install them..  So Avidyne is selling  extra trays so they can install the used Garmins…  

Guess what these customers  will buy when THEY are able to upgrade!

Now  Garmin is trying to modify  the approvals so  one must now have a GARMIN tray to install the used 430s (take this as a rumour only)

Nav

Edited January 15, 2019 by Navi

[Navi]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

@Navi

What brings you to MooneySpace?

Keeping up with one forum can keep a guy busy. Five? 

Best regards,

-a-

Hi Carusoam!

Before Christmas one of my "plane partners" showed up for an advert for a nice Mooney. (he would like to go a bit faster!)

So I figured where would be the best place to catch up on what the Mooneys are all about?   Have some hours in a Mooney, liked it a lot..  

One of the Piper pilots also has a Mooney and mentioned this place.. ...  Having just installed a new autopilot in our Cherokee, this thread attracted me right away. I have learned SO MUCH lurking in forums...

I am not very active on all of them, but it is winter here and I have some time on my hands...  I will probably "fade away" a bit when the weather warms up....  

Nav

Edited January 15, 2019 by Navi

[Sandman993]

10 hours ago, Navi said:

Ya.. it was a mis-step by Garmin. They really left the back door open on that one..  They have been playing catchup on the feature list with Garmin for some time..

The "plugin " upgrade of the Avidyne into the old Garmin tray was a brilliant marketing move. The new Garmin dependence on the almost all "touch screen" was another trip.  Garmin stopped making the 430 and 530 trays so buyers of the used 430 could not buy a tray to install them..  So Avidyne is selling  extra trays so they can install the used Garmins…  

Guess what these customers  will buy when THEY are able to upgrade!

Now  Garmin is trying to modify  the approvals so  one must now have a GARMIN tray to install the used 430s (take this as a rumour only)

Nav

Well heck Nav! Sorry about the piper remarks. It’s Carusoam’s fault... he gets me so excited about Mooney’s that I forget what a sugar coat guy I’m supposed to be when I post.

[Navi]

9 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

Well heck Nav! Sorry about the piper remarks. It’s Carusoam’s fault... he gets me so excited about Mooney’s that I forget what a sugar coat guy I’m supposed to be when I post.

Hehe.... no "Rub" taken! 

I will keep an eye on Carusoam then   .. …. 

 You DID say the Piper wings are "awesome" so all is forgiven...

Nav

[Marauder]

Hehe.... no "Rub" taken! 
I will keep an eye on Carusoam then   .. …. 
 You DID say the Piper wings are "awesome" so all is forgiven...
Nav

I like Hershey bars! They are delicious

I’ve got a couple hundred hours in Archers and Warriors. I was seriously looking at Archers until someone smacked me and I came back to my senses. My deceased uncles who both worked at Piper in Lock Haven and Vero Beach are probably rolling over in their graves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[carusoam]

Must have been a slow night on the P forum...

wait a minute... every night is.... A slow night on the P forum.... 

I held onto that for a day or two...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Sandman993]

35 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Must have been a slow night on the P forum...

wait a minute... every night is.... A slow night on the P forum.... 

I held onto that for a day or two...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

Lol!!! Says the guy with the 550 cubic inch engine. I just figured that out... so much for picking a race with you! I’ll have to settle for bullying the pipers I can reel in.

as I zip by:

Hi!  Mr Piper...How ya doin? Yeah, it’s me, gotta go, see ya!

[Navi]

44 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

Lol!!! Says the guy with the 550 cubic inch engine. I just figured that out... so much for picking a race with you! I’ll have to settle for bullying the pipers I can reel in.

as I zip by:

Hi!  Mr Piper...How ya doin? Yeah, it’s me, gotta go, see ya!

 

…..And here I am, …  flapping as hard as I can!! 

However, my friend with the Meridian....

Nav

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Navi

[carusoam]

Engine oriented Mooniacs.... have choices...

• Swapped out the carb for FI...
• increased cubes...
• increased rpm...
• increased CR...
• increased MP... went turbo or added a TN...

There are a couple of P46Ts (turbine) around MS... A Comanche 400 (720ci)... and a Carbon Cub...

Some come here as Mooniacs, but stay around after graduation...

Others, are deeply rooted in Mooneys, but their other plane is even more interesting for something a Mooney doesn’t do...

Imagine for a moment... your slow plane is a Rocket... or your fast car has track tires... (Somebody posted a video of Andy Pilgrim driving their Vette around Road Atlanta(?)) The MSer was riding shotgun... Also find the thread with Mooneys and the other rides...

for really interesting planes mooniacs fly... There is a thread honoring the military pilots and their work horses... we have many helicopter folks...

You can get the pilot out of the Mooney... but the Mooney will remain deeply imbedded within the pilot...

Stuff I learned on MS, and stored in a fuzzy memory...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-