86 252 LED recognition lights

[David Mazer]

My 86 252 needs both recognition lights and the left wing tip strobe replaced.  The recognition lights are very hot and can melt the lenses very quickly on the ground.  I have been considering changing to an LED system but my first estimate was over $3,200.  Anybody have any good suggestions?

[Parker_Woodruff]

When you find something good, let me know.

[Hank]

I talked to all the vendors at Sun-n-Fun. No Go for certified yet. Whelen says theirs is submitted, and expect approval in 12-18 months, because it is not a "safety of flight" issue. So I'm waiting, too. Wig-wags would sure be nice to have . . . Their PAR 36 landing light is already approved, and the PAR 46 is also in the works. More waiting . . .

[David Mazer]

If there are no available certified options, why is Sarasota Avionics able to quote the upgrade?  I'll have to check with them but their email to me stated that they were discussing it with Whelen.  I know someone with Aveo LEDs on a Trinidad so there are some certified options for some planes.

[David Mazer]

These are the Aveos installed on the Trinidad, listed at Aircraft Spruce for $783 for a set of two (I think).  The installation on the Trinidad looks very similar to the space on my wing tip and these are really small.  I think I will contact Aveo for their opinion.

[Hank]

Those look pretty neat! My wingtip is less complicated than yours, with only the red/green lights right now. I would LOVE to add wigwag strobes, but don't want to mess with the high-current lights and power supplies. Whelen does not yet have an LED unit small enough with sufficient power. All I have is these little colored lights, a belly strobe, a tiny tail light and a landing light.

I'm attaching a photo of my wingtip, that I showed the LED vendors at SNF. Please let me know what you hear back!

[David Mazer]

I spoke with Seattle Avionics today as an authorized rep for Aveo.  He originally quoted using the Whelen lights which cost $1,000 a side rather than the Aveo which costs $700 to $1000 for the set!  On top of that, he quoted $1,000 to "rewire" the lights.  After talking to another A&P, it is possible the the current wiring could be used or the current wiring could be used to pull the new wiring.  The real question is what will it take to get around the pulse generator that I already have in the plane.  I may need to also put in the tail strobe (another $300+) to turn the $1,000 in wiring to a couple hundred or less.  I am still hoping I can get both wings, and now the tail, done for about $1,500.  I'll keep everyone informed as I go.

[kortopates]

Nice looking light but they don't exactly look like they fit in the same footprint of your existing Whelen light, nor attach to the current retainer. Do they? Nor do they provide a recognition light, this just seems a lot of work when you could replace your current Whelen strobe/Nav lights with their drop in replacement model 71110 light at under $600 for the pair - if you really want the LED Nav lights. (It still uses the their non-led strobes, but what's the problem with their $75 flash tubes?) But none of this is a solution for the hot recognition light which I thought was your intent? What has your IA said about the approval process for installing these? Have you considered putting the recognition lights on a pulser, available from Lasar? That's easy and it'll really help the heat issue.

[David Mazer]

The foot print isn't exact but it isn't too different either. Yes, just replacing the bulbs would be the easiest and cheapest route except for three other reasons.  First, LEDs are more reliable.  Second, they draw a lot less power and my plane is taxing the 26 year old electrical design with all the electrical demand it has.  Third, my lens covers have already been replaced at least once and they are warping again (I know the lens still wouldn't cost this much).  The 71110 won't fit.  I checked with Whelen.

I have been told, and we are working on confirming, that the STC with a 337 is available.  I thought a 337 was required if you didn't have an STC but the IA says both are needed.  What do I know?

[kortopates]

Per Whelen's catalog 71110 is direct replacement for your current nav light: "71110 series is a wing tip mounted strobe anti-collision/position light assembly utilizing LED's for the forward position lights....Direct replacement (exact footprint) for the Whelen Model A650PG/PR series without replacing the current strobe power supply."   But I am not trying to sell you on a Whelen - just listing (legal approved ) options.

The Aveo lights are not a replacement for the "recognition" light that has the issue with melting the plexiglass wing tip covers. Alhtough they provide 3 functions of Nav, strobe and position lights - they do not provide the recognition light and thus you'll still need the existing recognition light. Plus the position light portion of the Aveo is non-functional when installed in the Mooney wing tip since it will not be visible from the behind and thus you'll you'll still need the white position light on the rear of the wing tip. 

So what does this buy you? an LED strobe and LED position light that doesn't really fit, and neither of which are melting your wing tip lenses like the recognition light that you still need. 

I am very skeptical about any STC and in fact skeptical about if they're even TSO'd yet. They say they they exceed TSO requirements, but no where do they say they are FAA/TSO'd i.e. approved by the FAA yet. Alhtough I would expect they are working on it - and could be for a long time. That said, sure I'd love to hear differently that they are TSO'd and they do have an STC and that your installer can get them in looking like they really belong there.

Incidentally, the '86 252 surely does not have a strained electrical system. It has double the electrical output of the prior 231 because of going to a 28v system. And if you have dual alternators, like most 252's, then you have four times the electrical capacity of the 231.

Good luck with the lights but the real problem still remains - a suitable cooler running Recognition light. A pulser is still the best option to keep it running cooler.

[David Mazer]

That has given me lots to think about.  Thank you.  The only argument to your information is that I have a 252 Rocket and it only has one alternator and two batteries in the Rocket conversion.  One of the big drawbacks to the Rocket.  The single alternator is why I worry about electric consumption.

[danb35]

Quote: Mazerbase

I have been told, and we are working on confirming, that the STC with a 337 is available.  I thought a 337 was required if you didn't have an STC but the IA says both are needed.  What do I know?

[RJBrown]

Quote

: Mazerbase

[danb35]

Quote: Mazerbase

That has given me lots to think about.  Thank you.  The only argument to your information is that I have a 252 Rocket and it only has one alternator and two batteries in the Rocket conversion.  One of the big drawbacks to the Rocket.  The single alternator is why I worry about electric consumption.

[David Mazer]

Maybe my electrical reserve concern is colored by my two Aspen tube display.  On a recent 40 min flight, the alternator went out.  Later it was traced to something in the annunciator panel breaker that had popped.  Despite having plenty of power in the ship's batteries, the backup battery on the Aspens kept coming on and they only last about 30 min.  So, regardless of my total battery capacity, my useful time frame is only around 30 min.  I am sure the rest of the plane's systems would operate, and did operate fine on that trip, but it has made me more conscious of the total picture.  However, it is nice of you to take me through the exercise to realize my real limitation probably isn't the ship's electrical system and prod me to find out why the Aspens went to backup so soon.

 

Kortopates - on further reflection about the lack of recognition lights in the Aveo's, I remembered that they strobe white light forward as well as abeam.  Not a true replacement for the recognition lights, maybe, but it is something.  Worth the cost and effort to replace.  Probably not but I'm not done investigating and all of you are so helpful in making sure my investigation is thorough and valid.  Thank you all for your time and information.  It is very helpful.

[kortopates]

Quote: Mazerbase

....Not a true replacement for the recognition lights, maybe, but it is something.  Worth the cost and effort to replace.  Probably not but I'm not done investigating ....

[David Mazer]

My cowl flap motor wasn't adjustable at all other than open or closed.  I have no explanation other than Rocket said they didn't install or change the motor and Mooney said this was the original equipment even though it looks like an after thought.  It is only an upgrade if it is better, it works, and a motor could be found.  At present, the motor isn't available (I don't know how long the back order is) and the cable is more reliable (I hope).  In addition, we shall see if any perspective buyer down the road will really know what was original, what wasn't, and what is important.  I doubt they will want me to take out the Aspens and put back the steam gauges.  I didn't see the same argument being made about the new LED landing/taxi lights.  What makes one think this would be different?

I am interested in the increased visibility the recognition lights may provide.  How I get there is still open and, with the way things are going with the resale on planes these day, my sizable investment is diminishing way faster as a result of the market than I am with improvements and maintenance.

From an economic perspective only, paying later at the same price is always better. Its a time value of money thing.  Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[peter]

Quote: Mazerbase

Maybe my electrical reserve concern is colored by my two Aspen tube display.  On a recent 40 min flight, the alternator went out.  Later it was traced to something in the annunciator panel breaker that had popped.  Despite having plenty of power in the ship's batteries, the backup battery on the Aspens kept coming on and they only last about 30 min.  So, regardless of my total battery capacity, my useful time frame is only around 30 min.  I am sure the rest of the plane's systems would operate, and did operate fine on that trip, but it has made me more conscious of the total picture.  However, it is nice of you to take me through the exercise to realize my real limitation probably isn't the ship's electrical system and prod me to find out why the Aspens went to backup so soon.

[David Mazer]

Thanks for the great input from everyone.  To complete this thread, I gave up for now and ordered replacement lamps.  At this moment there doesn't appear to be an acceptable LED alternative but maybe next time.

[David Mazer]

For those of you with my recognition light problem, I received an email today from David Green, the Service Manager at a MSC in Venice, FL.  While I am in the process of working with Aveon an LED option, the information seemed very reasonable and a very possible option.  Please see Mr. Green's email below, disseminated with Mr. Green's per mission):

"Here’s your problem.  The recognition light lamps are really only 14V lamps.  Your plane is 28V.  There is a resistor mounted in the wingtip to drop the voltage.  These resistors short out sometimes, allowing 28V to the lamp.  The lamp will glow red hot for a while and eventually burn out.  I’ve seen lenses melt all the way thru.  The resistors are about 8$ and the lamps are a little pricey at about $91.  I think Mooney wires everything up and then attaches the wing tips.  The resistors are buried inside the wingtip and are screwed to the bulkhead making them difficult to get to.  I did the last M20M  for 2 hrs a side.  Sounds expensive but it really isn’t an easy job.  Total cost per side, new lamps, resistors and labor about $270.
Hope this helps!
 
David Green
Maintenance Manager
______________________
Florida Flight Maintenance
160 E. Airport Ave
Venice, FL 34285
(941) 485-1149"

[N1026F]

Quote: Mazerbase

My 86 252 needs both recognition lights and the left wing tip strobe replaced.  The recognition lights are very hot and can melt the lenses very quickly on the ground.  I have been considering changing to an LED system but my first estimate was over $3,200.  Anybody have any good suggestions?

[David Mazer]

I had just about given up.  Thanks and I will discuss it with my A&P.

[fantom]

Fine solution, but was the "paperwork" a 337 w/ field approval?

If so, we need a copy!

[N1026F]

...just checked. It's a logbook entry by the A&P who checked my work.

[N1026F]

It may be that there's an even better LED mini bayonette light that will put out more light. Follow that link and poke around, there's quite a few more options out there now...