Top Overhaul

[RSHERRELL]

This is my first post I have a 1994 M20M that I have had for 4 to 5 years.  I rebuilt the engine two years ago and did a fire wall forward rebuild.  Everything was fine with the motor and Lycoming called and said they was a recall on the cylinders and I had so many hours or till next annual to replace them but they would cover the cost.  I took it back to Gann Aviation who rebuilt the motor to start with and I was happy with.  They took 50 hour at 70 per hour to do the job and now Lycoming has come back and said they will only pay 20 hours at posted shop rate.  20 sounds way low to me.  So my question is has anyone had a top overhaul done and if so what was the time charged to swap the 6 cylinder and put everything back to gather? I called one other Mooney service center and they estimated 50 to 55 hours to do the job.

Thanks

Ricky

[aaronk25]

Sorry to hear your bad luck. I don't have any advise other than to say the hours sound reasonable.

I too has a issue with poor lycoming support. Bought a brand new cam, put 400 hours on it in 2 years and it was shot. Bad metal. They wouldn't stand behind it. It cost them a factory remain engine sale.


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[DVA]

Hi Ricky,

Welcome to Mooneyspace! You’ll surely get a lot of great advice here and there are some very smart and capable people who have experiences that will help you make decisions.  That said, I don’t claim to be one of those extra smart and experienced people but I will give you my quick opinion for what it’s worth.

I assume you had the ECi cylinders installed that are part of about a dozen different SB and ADs? If not, please let us know what AD # was quoted to you from Lycoming on this.

20 hours is just barely a reasonable amount of time for an experienced A&P to do the job IF the engine remains mounted to the airframe. (more on that in a moment) Based on my experiences, it takes about 3 hours to prepare the engine for the top overhaul and about 2 hours per cylinder, a few hours to reattach everything, oil up and ground test. Lycoming obviously does this all the time and they came up with the 20 hours based on averages and to mitigate the cost of the warranty (or directive) repair costs.  But...

Again IMHO (and I bet in others too) you should not do a complete top with the engine mounted to the airframe. The engine should be pulled. This will add about 25 hours to the time and may be why you had a larger bill. The crankcase fits together very specifically and with extremely close tolerances around the crank bearings. Just the slightest mis alignment can cause increased bearing wear, crank imbalance, oil leaks, etc. In fact, some engine shops will not pull every jug off the case without first putting on and torquing down old junk jugs temporarily just to help insure and maintain case alignment.

Why pull it? A few reasons: on our planes (the M20M) the exhaust and turbo clamp fitting is super finicky and susceptible to leaking at the cylinder head if exact alignment is not ensured. Here’s what that looks like (white ashy area is exhaust leak):

And here’s what that looks like as the hot exhaust eat away at the gaskets and metal flange to the point where it is unrepairable after about 50 hours.

It is extremely difficult to change cylinders one at a time and reattach the exhaust headers and ensure they all remain aligned. (I have personally experienced that). Conversely, if you take all the cylinders off with the engine mounted on the airframe and then replace them all one at a time you risk case mis alignment as mentioned above. Not to mention that a good visual inspection of the entire engine after a major overhaul is much easier to do with the engine out.

Lycoming knows this, you should argue those points with them ... if your mechanic did indeed pull the engine to do the work and that caused the extra time.

If your mechanic took 50 hours to replace the cylinders while the engine was in the airframe - I’d be very interested in what caused him to take the long.

Good luck, and once again welcome to our crazy hangout!
DVA

 

[mike_elliott]

Carlus Gann is a noted engine builder and should be able to fight the fight for you with Lycoming. He maintains and builds engines for a number of high profile clients because of his reputation for first class work. I completely concur with DVA, you cant just pop off 6 jugs and bolt back on 6 new ones without severely risking misalignment. Heck on the Bravo, there is 10-15 hrs worth of hose R&R.

As DVA stated, Lycoming knows this, and should have made this "reimbursement restriction" known to you up front. I doubt if Lycoming would R&R the engine, change the cylinders, test, and document for 20 hrs at $70 per. Maybe Carlus can post $160/hr shop rate for Mooney Bravo Cyl replacement and charge 20 hours to meet their "requirements"

[RSHERRELL]

Thanks for the information, I think he did not pull the engine and I do have oil leaks that I did not have before the overhaul.  The ads were  Service Advisories No. SA 149 & SA 150 I did not have but about 140 hour on the engine and it was running great.  I had it back about two months and 35 hours on it with problems this time.

Ricky

[RSHERRELL]

Carlus Gann is a good engine builder from all I have been told and I have been happy with his work.  Carlus said he did not want to fight the fight because he had been down that road before and lost with them on other deals.

 

 

[DVA]

2 hours ago, RSHERRELL said:

Thanks for the information, I think he did not pull the engine and I do have oil leaks that I did not have before the overhaul.  The ads were  Service Advisories No. SA 149 & SA 150 I did not have but about 140 hour on the engine and it was running great.  I had it back about two months and 35 hours on it with problems this time.

Hmmmm ... not at all surprised that you have oil leaks now if the engine wasn’t pulled. Very sorry to hear that.

What you reference (my emphasis) above are not Airworthiness Directives, and Lycoming doesn’t use the nomenclature “Service Advisory,” they use Service “Bulletins - Instructions and Letters” for decreasing order of priority. Also, “SA 149” and “SA 150” do not correspond to any Lycoming produced material that I can find (others please help me if I missed something), and I used “the Google” to see if those “service advisories” came up with anything that resembled your issue, and I got nothing.

I am at a loss as to what mandated your cylinder replacement? 

As I mentioned, ECi cylinders have continuing ADs, but shops haven’t used them in years. The latest for the M20M is AD 2006-12-07. Here is the latest FAA AD search for the M20M for your reference.

Can you shed a little more light on what precipitated this? On what Lycoming said when they called? Verify you have a Mooney M20M with the TIO-540-AF1B (not trying to be funny).

I think we may be chasing a different fox here than the one you are chasing.

DVA

[RSHERRELL]

Below is what they sent me on the cylinders.  Thanks for your help I did text Carlos today and he said they did not pull the motor.  When I talked to him he said they did not pad it any either.  They done the annuitant at the same time and it was like 300 or 400 dollars less than normal because they were already in the engine and oil ect.   I got a quote from   Joey Cole at Cole aviation who is a Mooney service center and he quoted 50 to 55 hours at 90 per hour.  He said he had done a few of them and that what it took to do it right.  I don't know but was charged 15 hours to replace the exhaust last year so 50 to do the cylinder don't sound that much out of place to me.

 

Ricky

SA149 Cylinder Replacement (1).pdf

SA150 Cylinder Replacement(2) (1).pdf

[RSHERRELL]

I do have a  Mooney M20M with the TIO-540-AF1B  engine in it.  Like I said I bought all new cylinders two or three years ago and as you see in my last post they recalled them and said they could not tell me the problem but they had to be replaced but they would cover everything.

 

Ricky

[flyboy0681]

It seems strange that Lycoming would give you carte blanche. Sure there wasn't any paperwork describing what they would and would not pay for?

[DVA]

Well, if I were you I would be very unhappy.

There is no logical way it should take 50+ hours to that job unless there was confounding factors. There may have been, however you have not mentioned any. Regardless, this is the time it took for the repair to be properly made, which was at the request and direction of Lycoming, to you.

That said ...

This was not an AD, so it actually was not a “legal” mandatory repair and you could have ignored it (not a good idea, thought).  Lycoming however is sufficiently concerned about the integrity (read safety aspect) of the cylinders in the kit that they felt compelled to replace them under warranty (good you did!)

As a side note, it seems as if very few of the kits were actually distributed and only two new engines where built with affected cylinders. I am now curious if certain single cylinders (not associated with the “kit”) have issues? I am going to talk to Lycoming and will report back on this. Here is the result of that conversation.

In the end there is a fairness issue here. Apparently you were not made aware of the guidance in the Lycoming Removal and Installation Labor Allowance Guidebook (SSP-875) ssp-875.pdf that the SA references by either Lycoming OR by the Gann. I’ve highlighted the areas that I think apply and they are consistent with Lycoming’s response of paying for apx 20 hours. By not having that information you naturally assumed that the “labor” would be covered in full since Lycoming has “mandated” that you follow their advice in the SA.

I would call Lycoming and fight this out - IMHO they will, after hearing your factual rebuttal, do the right thing and provide you with full reimbursement. Lycoming is a staple of this industry and has not survived this long by not being fair to customers.

On Gann’s response that they didn’t want to go to bat for you? I am disappointed.

To boot, you now have oil leaks.

I trust that Gann recommended, and that you are following, Lycoming SI-1014 Lubricating Oil Recommendations.pdf and are using the correct oil for the break-in? For the turbocharged engines you should run the regular Ashless Dispersant oil - never mineral oil - due to the turbocharger’s bearing lubrication needs that far outweigh the older break-in rules to use mineral oil.

Good luck and thanks for sharing your story - let us know if you get relief from Lycoming.

DVA

 

[RSHERRELL]

After looking what he told me (Lycoming Worker) vs what he sent me ( Removal and reinstallation labor in accordance with the Lycoming Removal and Installation Labor Allowance Guidebook (SSP-875) was different.  So it may be my bad for not getting involved I sent the email to Gann and thought it was between them two so I was not worried about it.  May wind up being a costly lesson.  I was told Gann had to do the invoicing and he did but made it clear to me after the work was done that he worked for me not Lycoming but would bill them for me but I had to pay him when I picked up the plane and I did.

Ricky  

[Cruiser]

I have found it amazingly common for the aviation service industry to lack almost total communication skill. 

Particularly when it involves costs and charges. In general it seems to me that they just assume the owner is going to pay whatever it costs.

I wonder if they accept this behavior when they are the customer?

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Cruiser said:

I have found it amazingly common for the aviation service industry to lack almost total communication skill. 

Particularly when it involves costs and charges. In general it seems to me that they just assume the owner is going to pay whatever it costs.

I wonder if they accept this behavior when they are the customer?

I think part of the problem is they sometimes have you over a barrel. If you are looking for new avionics, you can shop to your hearts content.

If you are 500 miles away from home and the starter doesn't turn over and there's only one maintenance shop on the field, you are screwed.

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I think part of the problem is they sometimes have you over a barrel. If you are looking for new avionics, you can shop to your hearts content.

If you are 500 miles away from home and the starter doesn't turn over and there's only one maintenance shop on the field, you are screwed.

Has anyone used the service part of SAAVY aviators where they help you find mechanics and problem solve and generally handle the problem for mechanical issues that happen when you are away from home?  I have been thinking of subscribing to that service.

[DVA]

12 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Has anyone used the service part of SAAVY aviators where they help you find mechanics and problem solve and generally handle the problem for mechanical issues that happen when you are away from home?  I have been thinking of subscribing to that service.

I signed up this spring when it was first introduced. Ended up using it on my to KOSH after an exhaust leak was found. It was a great experience, they worked with the mechanics on the field where I landed, determined that it was airworthy to fly to KOSH, checked on me when I got to KOSH and helped guide the repair.

Could not be happier. I also use the analysis pro for a few years.

DVA

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, DVA said:

I signed up this spring when it was first introduced. Ended up using it on my to KOSH after an exhaust leak was found. It was a great experience, they worked with the mechanics on the field where I landed, determined that it was airworthy to fly to KOSH, checked on me when I got to KOSH and helped guide the repair.

Could not be happier. I also use the analysis pro for a few years.

DVA

Seems like a really good idea - I think I will end up doing it.  Seems like it could not only save a lot of angst and trouble but in one incident like that, pay for itself and then some.

[yvesg]

How much does it costs?

Yves

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, yvesg said:

How much does it costs?

Yves

$149/yr http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/pirep/cat/pireps/post/three-rules-dealing-airplane-breakdown-home/

[Guest]

Once again Lycoming sticking it to the consumer, just like the crankshaft retirement SB's

Clarence