Stupid stuff ; landing , starting?

[Shadrach]

  On 4/18/2015 at 4:22 PM, carl said:

Wait , question on trim, Hank? 

When I landed last I was over the fence slow and trimmed with full flap in , 5 pumps. I touched down just as the stall horn sounded.

 

I did not touch my trim after , back at the hanger I looked at the elevator , it was trimmed super tail down , nose high , as I expected.

 

 

This is way off from my takeoff trim position, since I'm trimmed right above a stall . 

 

carl

Carl, are you sure it takes 5 pumps? If it does, you likely have air in the system.

[Shadrach]

  On 4/18/2015 at 4:29 PM, DXB said:

I was thinking the same- I've been working to get the trim right on final with full flaps, and it is always significantly nose up relative to takeoff position. For go-around, I would expect to need to push the nose down until I have a chance to retrim.

You do have to retrim on a go around. Alternatively, you can just muscle it until you're ready to raise flaps altogether. It should climb fust fine with the flaps out at normal DAs. The trim is up because of the flaps. If you retrim, be ready for the nose to come up when you raise the flaps.

[carl]

It is really 41/2 pumps , 

but i count out loud to 5. 

[carusoam]

My C usually had full up (or nearly so) trim at time of landing.

I would add trim for speed and run out of trim or nearly run out.

The ADF wire would hang really loose and be noticeably sagging.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

  On 4/18/2015 at 8:44 PM, carl said:

It is really 41/2 pumps , 

but i count out loud to 5.

Should be precisely 4 to down and locked.

[Shadrach]

  On 4/18/2015 at 8:50 PM, carusoam said:

My C usually had full up (or nearly so) trim at time of landing.

I would add trim for speed and run out of trim or nearly run out.

The ADF wire would hang really loose and be noticeably sagging.

Best regards,

-a-

I resemble that remark. ADF is coming out this year. iPod has negated the need for it as a source of inflight entertainment. Although it was cool to occasionally catch creepy segments Coast to Coast with Art Bell or George Noory on night flights.

[Hank]

  On 4/18/2015 at 4:22 PM, carl said:

Wait , question on trim, Hank?

When I landed last I was over the fence slow and trimmed with full flap in , 5 pumps. I touched down just as the stall horn sounded.

I did not touch my trim after , back at the hanger I looked at the elevator , it was trimmed super tail down , nose high , as I expected.

This is way off from my takeoff trim position, since I'm trimmed right above a stall .

carl

If you watch my video posted above, you'll see there's neither fence nor boundary where I'm used to landing. Although down here in the sunny south, we have flat, clear overruns, fences, more flat open ground then 5000' of runway with a full-length parallel taxiway! How could I NOT land here? As it is, I make the midfield turnoff easily with only gentle braking required.

Normal takeoffs have the trim set so the bottom of the indicator is at the top of the wide "Takeoff" mark. I drop Takeoff flaps at pattern entry at 90 mph, trim for level, drop gear abeam intended landing spot, hold 90 mph on base, roll wings level on final at 85 mph and cross the trees in my video around 70. Throttle for altitude, pitch for speed, I'm done trimming by short final. I add more flaps if I'm really high. Thus trim is close to my takeoff position when I reach the ramp and have time to look at it.

After all, my Owners Manual says "Flaps--TAKEOFF or as desired" on the checklist, and I use them as another tool to maintain glideslope; I mostly use full flaps on calm days, when it's hard to descend.

Even then, a go around requires a good stiff arm on the yoke. Just channel your inner Bo Jackson until you have time to crank the trim wheel. Raise some flaps, stiff arm, trim and repeat as necessary.

I recently tried to make a photo pass, gear up, and had a difficult time holding her down to flap speed with a Takeoff flaps selected and throttle < 15".

P.S.--Carl, as I lower flaps, the nose lowers significantly, I add trim in the UP direction to slow down. How do you land with much DOWN trim???

[MyNameIsNobody]

When I lower flaps I have to roll at least 2.5 of forward roll on trim wheel to bring nose DOWN...

[Bob_Belville]

  On 4/19/2015 at 1:20 AM, MyNameIsNobody said:

When I lower flaps I have to roll at least 2.5 of forward roll on trim wheel to bring nose DOWN...

What in the world are you flying?!

[Hank]

Sounds like a Cessna . . . .

[carl]

 oh no... Taildown  is nose up.

[Shadrach]

  On 4/19/2015 at 1:20 AM, MyNameIsNobody said:

When I lower flaps I have to roll at least 2.5 of forward roll on trim wheel to bring nose DOWN...

 

 

You need to stop flying inverted approaches.  The FAA frowns on that sort of thing unless you have special permission.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Funny. Obviously you all think I am not correct. Which I probably am not...BUT after lowering flaps to landing (on final-four pumps)I have to roll significant trim. (to neutralize force on yoke) Now I am wondering am I rolling nose down (away from me) or nose up (towards me). It is not a conscious thing...I just respond to the nose

[Shadrach]

  On 4/19/2015 at 1:56 AM, Hank said:

Sounds like a Cessna . . . .

 

IIRC, Cessnas pitch down as well.  I could be misremembering as it has been well over 10 years since I flew a brand C product.

[carl]

 I attached a picture of the tail left trimmed in the landing configuration.

 

 I have  4 and a half flaps pumps. 67 E

[Shadrach]

  On 4/19/2015 at 3:44 PM, MyNameIsNobody said:

Funny. Obviously you all think I am not correct. Which I probably am not...BUT after lowering flaps to landing (on final-four pumps)I have to roll significant trim. (to neutralize force on yoke) Now I am wondering am I rolling nose down (away from me) or nose up (towards me). It is not a conscious thing...I just respond to the nose

 

 

10 to 1 you're rolling front to back or from down to up (nose up)!  Nice to know there is no air in your flap system.

[carl]

I landed today . On runway 12 , the shortest, about  3800 x 75 .  5kt wind from 80 degrees.

80 mph final , over the fence , slowed to full stall landing before wheels touched smoothly . If I wanted I could have turned off at the halfway intersection.

Took the picture of the tail.

 

Now i need to change oil. 

yea!

[Shadrach]

  On 4/19/2015 at 3:48 PM, carl said:

 I attached a picture of the tail left trimmed in the landing configuration.

 

 I have  4 and a half flaps pumps. 67 E

 

We really should meet for a photo shoot.

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/30457-dirty-bird/

 

As I stated before, you have a minor issue with your flaps.  I have done considerable trouble shooting on these sytems. It is a wonderful and reliable system, that when funtioning properly takes 4 pumps from zero to full. 60% of the time problems come from improper maintenance; the other 40% of the problems are caused by leaks.  I make up my statistics about 95% of the time.  

 

It's no big deal to fix these things if your MX is familiar. The whole thing can be overhauled for about $50 in parts.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Been there, done that (flap system overhaul). It is a beautiful simple system when functioning well. When not (brakes and flaps) it is a nagging pain in the rear.

[MyNameIsNobody]

  On 4/19/2015 at 3:50 PM, Shadrach said:

10 to 1 you're rolling front to back or from down to up (nose up)!  Nice to know there is no air in your flap system.

I'll take those odds.

[carl]

_{Ha  , Classic  1967. Same Paint.Nice} 

 

[Shadrach]

  On 4/19/2015 at 4:24 PM, carl said:

_{Ha  , Classic  1967. Same Paint.Nice} 

Same colors anyway.  I like the windshield mod!

[Andy95W]

  On 4/19/2015 at 4:00 PM, Shadrach said:

We really should meet for a photo shoot.

 

As I stated before, you have a minor issue with your flaps.  I have done considerable trouble shooting on these sytems. It is a wonderful and reliable system, that when funtioning properly takes 4 pumps from zero to full. 60% of the time problems come from improper maintenance; the other 40% of the problems are caused by leaks.  I make up my statistics about 95% of the time.  

 

It's no big deal to fix these things if your MX is familiar. The whole thing can be overhauled for about $50 in parts.

Love the original paint jobs.

Respectfully disagree about the flaps. I have owned 2 with hydraulic flaps, both took 4 1/2 pumps. After completely reworking both, they still took 4 1/2 pumps after bleeding. I've worked on other airplanes, also 4-5 pumps.

The Pilot Operating Handbook states "four and one-half strokes for full deflection". This may be a difference between short (C and E) and the long bodies, or yours may not be rigged for full travel. Or you could be getting a greater length stroke.

Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it as long as it's between 4 and 5.

[carl]

" Love the original paint job "

 

 Well iI think I want to paint it .

I want to paint it myself ! Crazy I know. 

[Shadrach]

  On 4/20/2015 at 3:22 AM, N1395W said:

Love the original paint jobs.

Respectfully disagree about the flaps. I have owned 2 with hydraulic flaps, both took 4 1/2 pumps. After completely reworking both, they still took 4 1/2 pumps after bleeding. I've worked on other airplanes, also 4-5 pumps.

The Pilot Operating Handbook states "four and one-half strokes for full deflection". This may be a difference between short (C and E) and the long bodies, or yours may not be rigged for full travel. Or you could be getting a greater length stroke.

Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it as long as it's between 4 and 5.

Interesting. I see the old POH from 65 says 4 and one half. My POH from 67 says nothing about number of pumps. My 67 F is precisely 4 then it's hydro locked, as has been every other manual flap mooney I'm aquatinted with. If the 67 E is like the 65' that means the used different components from the F models on the same assembly lines at the same time. Not efficient.