AndyFromCB

If you're flying a 172, learn how to land it by keeping about 60knots on final not the usual 70-75 that most CFIs like. It will go a long way towards learning how to land your mooney. Nice and slow on final.

Quote: johnggreen Astelmaszek, Well Bud, you finally told the absolute truth. I just didn't have the heart as I seem to make enemies on this site like a horny rabbit. That is exactly why I don't expect to sell my Bravo. Jgreen

Quote: ad8n

All airplanes, boats, cars, etc are worth vRef minus 20%. It's as simple as that. That's what they are worth to a bank or a wholeseller. I took it up my butt pretty good when I sold my Arrow, the nicest damn Arrow in the whole country and I expected it. First buyer who offered vRef minus 20% without any attached BS owned it, I even delivered. All and all, took about 3 hours of my time. Actually, I rejected a ton of offers for and over vRef, they all came with strings attached. My time is not worth it. When I bought the Bravo, I offered vRef minus 20%, bought it on the spot few minutes later. So far I put another 70K into it. If I ever get $165K for it, after investing over $200K, I'll be a happy guy. vRef says 200K, so likely, if I ever sell it it will be for $160K. All the time and effort making it perfect doesn't mean a thing to a seller. They will find another $40K worth of things wrong with it. We all know it's not that hard in this business. Enjoy it while you own it, dump it when you can't afford or want something bigger. Time, hangar costs, insurance, etc all costs money too.

Quote: jlunseth I am going to stick with Jose. Nice to have the storms cope as another source, but XM is all you need, because unless you have a reading on the Mk I you have no business going in, you should be deviating as far around as necessary. Nice that the wings will stay on at 12G's, but your own frame would sustain damage I am afraid.

Quote: jetdriven Good radar can detect precipitation before it begins falling. The window is not very big, but you can see wet buildups and if they are of the TS variety, they have a red core and a steep gradient. Tilt the radar up a small amount and watch which ones disappear from the screen first. The ones remaining are the tallest, and usually, the nastiest. I have bever used Doppler radar but it can see the red/blue shift and it marks those shear boundaries for turbulence. I saw that M20K for salvage. It had a report from Mooney engineering confirming the estimated +/-12 G in rapid succession, several of them. The wings were both bent up, and the fuselage was bent down to the point you could stick your finger in the gap between the cabin door or the baggage door with them latched. 6" or so total bend. Absolutely incredible.

Byron, Never having have flown an airplane with on board radar can you explain how a radar can show a buildup that's not yet raining? I thought stormscope was the only thing able to do that. Is it because the really good radars use doppler effect to detect turbulance? I'm not asking for pages of details, just a quick and dirty on onboard radars. Thanks in advance, Andy P.S. I like the bonanza comment, mooneys tend to depart intact, but depart non the less. We had a guy here few years back do 12G in a mooney over Lincoln, NE. Wings had a strange bend to them after landing but they stayed on. 12Gs was what the factory told NTSB would take to achieve that level of deformation. Nice to know we fly with that kind of spar. I'm only upgrading when I can afford a TBM 700 C2 so probably never ;-)

Let me chime in here for another comment: -I don't have any experience with WX10. I have used both WX500(my previous aircraft, displayed on GNS430, my current aircraft, displayed on a GMX200) and WX1000E (my current aircraft, it's a seperate head that also functions as a backup NAV head to my GNS430). NEXRAD is a tactical planning tool to go around large areas of weather and plan hours in advance. Most of my flights are between 450nm and 700nm so it's great knowing what's happening at destination and along the route. My XM displays on my GMX200 along with WX500 stormscope data. Since I'm two of everything (other than engine) kind of guy, I also get the basic subscription for my 796 just in case my GDL69 craps out (it did once so far). Can't wait for the GDL39 to show up to cancel that subscription. Stormscope is what allows me to fly summer IFR without 100 mile deviations. It also allows to make a decission on the ground prior to take off when launching into summer CUs. NEXRAD is useless for that purpose. It has saved my bacon quite a few times when there was nothing on NEXRAD for 50 miles in any direction and the stormscope just started going off, slowly at first and then more and more yellow. It's time to land. Or you turn it on before take off. A lot of times CU around here look pretty scary but are actually pretty good rides if nothing pops up on my stormscope. Quite the opposite has happend to me as well. Nothing on NEXRAD, CUs didn't look that tall at all but where very close together. My stormscope was YELLOW all over, didn't even think twice, put the airplane away. About 30 minutes later all hell broke loose. It showed up on NEXRAD 15 minutes later while sitting at the FBO in Acron, CO (BTW, great little FBO, cheapest fuel I could find around Denver). When combined with NEXRAD it also allows me to figure out when a storm has given up it's ghost. There is a lot of RED on NEXRAD that is quite flyable, sometimes down right pleasant free airplane wash. Last year I was coming back from MN, landing KCBF. I was watching the weather for last hour of flight, entire Omaha was RED on NEXRAD, storm kept on moving EAST, I was about 50 miles out when I started talking with approach, I was IFR in VMC but could tell I was going to be IMC last 20 miles or so, big giant CUs still over Omaha. I asked for ride reports and approach said last few minutes the situation was improving, they started landing planes and the big iron was reporting good rides. Now, I'll take a "good ride report" from heavy iron with a grain of salt when I'm in a single but my stormscope was also very quiet after last clear over the area and very active about 30 miles east, so I knew it was working. I accepted the clearance. Tons and tons of rain but seriously smoother than a baby's butt. Free airplane wash. Stormscope doesn't actually really show just "lighthing" as we think of it, it shows vertical air movement inside a cloud which in turn generates small cloud to cloud strikes, many of them not even visible to the eye outside of a CU. If there is vertical movement, there will be electricity, there will be turbulence.

Quote: Piloto Unless you fly outside of XM\WX coverage I would not spend the time and money of having a Stormscope installed. I have XM and WX-10 Stormscope and only look at the WX-10 when flying in the Caribean Islands. Stormscope weather depiction is not as complete and accurate as XM. On the WX-10 you have to wait several minutes to get a good idea of the size and intensity of the storm. I found that turbulence in most cases is not associated with lightning but rather with build up height which is only visible on the XM satellite view. José

Quote: jetdriven There is not, just like there is no certification requirement for a twin engine plane to maintain flight after losing one engine.

Quote: bd32322 If you're doing it in a fully loaded Cessna 172 or a Piper Cherokee 140 you will never get to " once you are accelerating and have gained some height from the ground."

Quote: bd32322 I'll throw a monkey wrench in all this ... So what happens if you come in to land full flaps and do a go-around and refuse to change the flap setting when slow and low to the ground and only retract flaps to takeoff setting once you are accelerating and have gained some height from the ground. The aircraft must have been certified with full flaps on a go-around. After all a landing is nothing but a preparation for a go-around. Seriously, I will be very concerned and surprised if Mooney did not test full-flaps takeoffs, touch and goes and go-arounds from the air. I understand when someone will cry out - "well its not the same - he is knowingly taking off with full flaps whereas the other event was a go-around in a possibly emergency and quick reaction-required scenario" - but does the airplane care?

Quote: jlunseth Sorry but that is simply wrong. The aircraft is fully certified to conduct flight with flaps full down. It is nowhere near flying with a piece of prop missing. Hopefully, everyone on this board has conducted slow flight with full flaps this summer. Full flaps is a normal flight mode, prop piece missing is definitely not. Would also like to see the FAR provision saying flaps are a "primary flight control.". I looked around a little yesterday, saw something about the controls a pilot normally uses for roll, pitch and yaw. Flaps are none of those nor speed brakes either.

Quote: aviatoreb I hear you on that. I am bewildered how some airplanes seemingly go for decades of disuse and keeping turning on when you kick it over and nothing bad seems to outcome. My AP was telling me recently about a Cessna 170 from the 1960s that flies maybe 5 or 10 hrs a year that sits at a nearby grass strip airport for 9 months of the year in a roof-only hangar. Snow piles up all around it. I don't understand why that motor hasn't just disappeared in corrosion by now.

My engine has eaten 3 camshafts in 3500 hours according to logbooks, first on at 1600 hours (Matituck overhauled), another one at 2400 hours and then again (Leavens overhaul) and then another at 3500 hours (Central Cylinder). It wasn't from lack of usage. Engine is 20 years old, flown on average 175 hours per year. Camguard always used as well. I posted the pictures of the camshaft in the Bravo Forum section. Byron, consider yourself lucky. My removal/reinstall bill is closer to 20K with the various bits and pieces that Bravo uses. Almost 12K in parts alone.

Thanks Byron, Well, having just spent the $430 on a new probe, I'll keep this in mind for the future. Might just mail them my old one and have a spare one sitting around (I'm kind of obsesed about spares, that's why I don't want to upgrade my panel too much, I have almost a full spare set of avionics sitting around I bought for less than 3K on ebay over last year) Now if someone could just come up with exhaust clamps that don't cost $800 a pop, it would be great. The whole set of clamps set me back close to $2K. I'm glad my exhaust transition was in great shape. How a piece of pipe that weights a few lb can cost $8000 retail is beyond me. Andy

John, I could be wrong but as far as I am concerned, the probe plugs in into the exhaust transition (a little piece of pipe that costs $5000 or $8000 MSRP, don't you love certified aircraft). I have two probes. On is a screw in type, an Alcor probe that runs about $430 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/alcor86309.php I'm not sure any other type of probe works there but maybe it's different for the Moritz gauge panel. The other is just a hole drilled in the transition pipe that runs to my GEM/G1 engine monitor. Let me know if the cheaper probe works out. If it does, can you name the source? Andy

Quote: jetdriven 515,000$ list price, and I bet the 155 KTAS is quoted at 20,000'. Otherwise, its likely the same as the other 182s, around 135-140 knots. Remember that last "new" diesel 182, the Thielert? One more thing, 11 GPH at 75% power is a .43 BSFC. Worse than gasoline piston engines. However, the major benefit is using the plane in places where 100LL gasoline is not available, such as Africa.

Corrosion definatelly was not an issue. Airplane was based in Lake Tahoe, flown weekly between Tahoe and LA. I'm not crying too much, I paid next to nothing for it (I knew the engine was going to go sooner rather than later) and now I have a TKS Bravo with a new engine, overhauled gyros/autopilot, upgraded GMX200/GDL69/WX500, fairly new paint and interior, 400 hours on prop/governor/exhaust, new everything else and I'm still in for less than vRef. Granted, it's been fun 8 months getting everything in top shape and writting lots more checks. Keeping N767RD for a while. Now time to get back to work, write the next big app to make good photos look bad and buy me a TBM. Andy

What's funny is 8 out 9 lobes are within new limits and one is so far gone. Out of the 12 tappets, 1 was a goner, 1 was starting to go, you could tell it quit rotating, others looked brand new. Other than the oil pump housing, the rest of the engine looked new upon opening. It was 1600 since major but only 1100 since almost major (case work, new cam, new cylinders) and 400 since tear down by G&N for prop strike inspection. I'm a strong believer G&N killed it during the inspection and reassembly. Hopefully the guys at Central Cylinder where you can eat of the floor in the assembly room did better. Everyone I talked to around here has never had an issue with their engines and they do all work inhouse including fuel, turbos, controllers, etc. One of the better equipped shops in the nation that doesn't just look at lycomings price list and knocks a grand off like most big name shops. I'm not going to name names but they do a lot of work for few of the big ones. On the other hand they showed me an engine done by a big name shop they were tearing apart at 100 hours because it was making metal.

Pistons actually looked fine as well but with all the other costs involved and me hoping to get at least get TBO out of this "new" engine, 1200 bucks I would have saved wasn't worth it. Kept the jugs, replaced pistons, pins, valves, springs, guides and rockers at $1200 per cylinder. Saving $200 per piston and rings just didn't seem worth it.

Brand spanking new last time 1100 hours ago with a new set of cylinders, turbo and few other goodies. That's why I kept the cylinders during this overhaul, 1200 vs 2800 for new. Andy

The camshaft is the one that came out of my 1600 hour TIO540AF1B, the camshaft in question is actually only about 1100 hours old as it was replaced by previous owner during engine repair. That lobe is about 3 millimeters shorter than the rest. The oil analysis was showing elevated steel starting about 1450 hours. So the engine flew for about 150 hours with this happening, never missing a beat, still climbing like a bat out of hell. The good news, oil filter did its job, the crank, connecting rods, cylinders are still all standard size after the overhaul. TIO540AF1B overhaulled with all accesories for 33K (other than the turbo which would have been another 1500 or so), granted I kept the cylinders, but all new pistons, springs, valves, guides, etc. But the cylinders only had 1100 hours on them and still measured standard.

Looked at one when I was buying my Bravo. The gross weight is a non issue. All long bodies got a paper increase to 3368 from the initial 3200 with no modifications, so I'd have no problems flying this baby at 1000 useful. Never seen a scale at a ramp check ;-) Quite frankly with that kind of power, you should have no problems taking off at about 4300lb but that might be pushing it a bit. From my limited experience so far, if Mooney just redesigned their landing gear, they would have a full fuel/full 4 seat aircraft because climb rate on my Bravo with only 270hp has never been a limiting factor even closer to 3600lb on take off. I've had 650lb in the cabin before, TKS full and 530 or so lb of fuel on board. Still saw 1100fpm climbing at 120knots. Once again, not recommended, to each their own. Trick I think is always landing below the 3200lb limit. You might actually be able to do 200knots door to door with this airplane if you're willing to climb to 25,000 and wear a mask and the fly on the redline in descents. Not the wisest thing to do in my humble opinion. My understanding is it will still do easy about 600fpm at 25,000 and gets there in under 25 minutes. At that altitude it will hit 240 to 245knots. The biggest issue with this airplane is you will chasing coolant leaks forever. At least that was the experience of the 421 driver I know who had the 421 converted to these engines.

You might get no reading at all if the probe simply "disappears" from heat and corrosion. I was just at the airport watching my engine being reinstalled. The main probe connected to panel gauge at 200 hours is looking pretty rough by still gives good reading. The probe connected to the GEM is gone, as in gone, not there. Simply corroded and whatever was left broke away and turned to dust inside the turbo. Andy