AndyFromCB

This is quite amazing. Exactly what I've been looking for all these years...

Here is the deal with airplanes. Even though you're buying a 30K mooney, what you are really buying is a 300K mooney because that's what it would cost in today's dollars if mooney was still building them. If you bought a new airplane, I'd say at any given time, you need to have 20% of purchase price just sitting around just in case. If you buy a 10 to 20 year airplane, I'd say that number is closer to %40 percent. If you buy a 30 to 40 year old airplane, I'd say have another 100% of purchase price sitting around and be ready to write that check at any time. My two cents. All and all included, capital costs too, I'd say my Bravo runs me about $45K a year to fly 150 hours or so that I do. And I'd say that's on the low end but I'd just rather not think about, so closer to $4K a month, so I'd say a a budget of $1000 to $1500 would be more like it for a simpler model. That's about what my Arrow used to run me a month according to my spreadsheets. I'd go as far as saying nobody has any business flying any sort of extended IFR without an autopilot with at least an altitude hold. Things get busy up there quickly. To give you an idea of "airplane money", the reinstall bill for the engine alone, with all the FF forward parts required to be new and/or overhauled was close to 30K. Not including the engine. One stupid exhaust part was close to 6K.

Correct on all the points, gsengle. My few encounters with ice in my Arrow and then my TKS mooney have me convinced it's just best to stay out of the stuff all together. Hence my preference for the turbo. As to departing IMC below freezing, i've done it before in a Arrow, I'll do it in a Mooney, TKS or or no TKS. I will not depart into a frontal conditions, but I have no problems zoom climbing thru a 3000 foot layer, even in the arrow exposure time was less than 2 minutes from 140knots indicated to 80knots on top of the climb.

My non-FIKI installation is missing the following: a second main pump, second windshield pump. Everything else, panels, windshield spray, prop slinger is the same on the Bravo FIKI vs non-FIKI. Mine has the cut outs for the landing lights/taxi lights. I replaced my landing lights with LED and kept my regular taxi lights in order to be able to shed ice built up with heat. The lack of a second pump is not a big deal in my book. You have to prime the system on the ground anyway if you're departing into potential ice. Your total exposure to icing will be about 4 minutes during a climb, at least where and when I fly. I don't take off into a frontal condition. En route, icing isn't an issue in a Bravo, at least never for more than 15 minutes or so, and you'll have to prime again to cross any front at FL200 so you can verify the system is working again. Never seen a front wider than 50 miles or so and the goal is to cross at 90 degrees and fly behind it. If it's not working, you'll have to turn around. Even it it's working, if the clouds are up to FL200 in the winter, you might reconsider, land and wait for it to blow over. On the approach is where the second pump would come in handy, but once again, overrated. By the time you'd notice one pump failed, most likely the system would be useless for next 15 minutes anyway while it tries to shed existing ice after you'd flip the pump switch. It's painful to watch TKS trying to shed existing ice, even a thin layer. It's a anti-ice system, not a de-ice system. One thing to note to existing boot drivers, boots work better the higher the speed. TKS just the opposite, if it's becoming overwhelmed, slow down. You'll get more concentrated mixture of alcohol and moisture. That's my take on FIKI vs non-FIKI.

I did this research when I bought my Bravo. For all intents and purposes, the panel coverage and fluid flow is identical between FIKI and non-FIKI birds. I measured with a tape. At least on my non-FIKI Bravo vs a FIKI M20R I was looking at buying. I decided that the turbo is worth considerably more to me when dealing with mid-west icing than FIKI paperwork. Also, you don't get the heated stall warning with the non-FIKI install but if you're depending on the stall warning in icing, you're already deeper than I'd ever want to be. BTW, TKS works great, when primed. Landed in Des Moines last winter with an inch of ice on the wingtips without a trace anywhere else. All and all it took about 15 minutes for the 1inch to accumulate. The king air that followed me in looked like an icicle. That was the only time I used the system. Also, I'd keep my landing lights off for as long as possible, otherwise you end up getting nice 4 inch wide area of runback on the wings behind the lights. Let some accumulate, then flip them on to heat the lens, then turn back off really quickly when the chunk falls off.

Also, at each oild change, lube the slip joints and wastegate with mouse milk, my two cents...

Ben, I don't know about Zodiak Europe, they might be great, but here in the US, their customer service is the worst I've ever dealt with. A local guy called me back right away but he could only point me in the right direction. At that point, it was 3 months of phone tag, then I threw in the towel. Then my mechanic tried and had the same issues of getting blown off. Finally, a guy called us back from Georgia, 3 weeks after we already got the bottle and regulator back from the above mentioned companies. Second of all, Zodiak does not actually manufacture the bottle. It is made by a company called SCI, they just put a label on it with a part number. When I finally got a call back, their price for the bottle was $2000. Same bottle from HRD, $1700. Andy

You can deal with Zodiak/Avox, get a bunch of run around, finally speak to somebody 3 weeks later and then maybe get your system serviced in 3 months or http://www.hrd-aerosystems.com, part number is H21507-04, about $1700. The original part number is 21507-04, this is a PMA bottle, identical to the Scott/Zodiak system as the oxygen bottle is actually made by SCI for medical purposes. The part is also used in Boeing jets so they always seem to have fresh bottles at HRD. As to your regulator, http://www.turbinerotables.com/ will overhaul for about $700 with a new boss fitting, it was a 3 day turnaround for me. Ask for Mark Mertes, a pleasure to deal with. They want your business unlike Zodiak.

I would also add one more thing: be really aware of winds at altitude of surrounding ridges. What I mean by surrounding can be anything up to 10 or so miles away. If it's howling over 25knots at those altitudes, I would strongly recommend not taking off. I flew my 200hp Arrow for 2 years into the mountains and on a hot day 200fpm to 300fpm being 300lb under gross was par for the course. There is no worst feeling than seeing that 200fpm turn to -500fpm because of even light mountain wave activity. Second of all, forget any sort of IFR operation. A mountain wave or rotor activity will kill even my Bravo's climb rate to zero, I would always treat my Arrow like a 2 seater with a 30gallon tank when taking off from mountain airports. You can always land once you're back to flat land and top off. Even with my Bravo now, I don't intend to load up more than 50 gallons when taking off from KJAC and don't do IFR in the mountains. Last fellow who tried IFR there in a Mooney became part of the landscape with his 3 boys. Last but not least, mixture. Do not go full rich on landing in case you have to go around. I'd always do a full power run up on take off and get the mixture set to about 1350EGT in my Arrow. On landing, I'd do the same in the air. You're already running WOT anyway, low MP, you're not going to hurt anything.

Call Randy Herren at autopilotcentral.com. Sounds to me like your AI is not sending out proper pitch attitude back to the unit. I was under the impression that EFS 40 was a digital HSI. Does your plane still have the KI256 attitude indicator? That's what probably needs overhaul. $2500 from autopilotcentral.com, few days turn around time.

Charlie, You must be taller than me or sit up higher in the seat. Mine are exactly the same and my scalp still seems to be in one piece. Zam, The oxygen should not flow without being plugged into, I generally leave my oxygen on all the time, this way when I pre-fly, I can see if there is any leaks. None so far. As to the oxygen tank, if it's the kevlar type, it needs be replaced every 15 years as well. I have a PMA source, much easier than dealing with Zodiak. Aerox now has them PMAd as well. Turbine Rotables will overhaul your regulator for about $700 as well, once again, much easier than dealing with Zodiak, 3 day turn around. I don't know about European Zodiak but here in US, I had a new tank from CA at my door step and a overhauled regulator shipped back and forth to Kansas before one of Zodiak's reps called me back. All tanks are actually made by one little company in US and before they get an FAA part # stamped on them, they cost $300. Being a European ex-pat living in America, I understand that nothing happens in Europe in August (or Jan-Dec if dealing with Spaniards, French or Polish) but I was dealing with a crew from Georgia, USA and they were the most miserable bunch of people I've ever dealt with. As to what I did with my old tank, well, I'm turning into a giant potato gun ;-) As to cannulas, if you bump up the flow to mask level and are somewhat flexible with the "regulations", you can easily wear them to FL230, I know quite a few sailplane pilots who do and still maintain as good oxygen saturation as with a mask. There is no reason to buy the expensive but most of all, uncomfortable mask. Cannulas work just fine. Andy

Ben, What are the connectors you are talking about? Do they function as restrictors for the built in altitude compensating regulator? If so, why not just buy a flow meter like the one includes in the kit I linked to above? Andy

http://preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/kit/single-a5-breathing-station-beech-mooney-piper/ A complete kit, including mask, cannula and flowmeter. It's what I purchased. Between the conserving cannula and a flowmeter, your oxygen supply will last quite a while.

So I went up yesterday again to play with the engine. With the surface temperatures at 80 degrees, no problems whatsoever keeping the temperatures below 400 even in climb, about 360 in cruise between 24 to 30mp, now at 2300rpm, with cowl flaps closed. When it was 95 to 100 on the surface, I needed to leave them 1/2 open in cruise. Seems to me that dropping RPM to 2300 has a pretty good effect at reducing my fuel flows with minute effect on speed, engine still runs ultra smooth as opposed 2200 where I feel some vibration kicking in. In any case, I tried running between 25 to 50 degrees LOP at 24/2300 and 27/2300. Engine seems to run just fine at these settings, yes my CHTs do drop about 20 degrees to about 340. However, the speed loss is big, about 5 to 7 knots depending on the setting. You can feel it when you push the mixture back in to go over to ROP side, the plane just jumps and starts accelerating. I'm going to stick to running right at peak at these settings. TIT peaks below or right at 1650, fuel flow is between 12.5 to 15.5 gph, speed between 160 to 175 at 12,000 feet. AT 25 or so LOP, I can save about 2gph but I'm not sure the speed loss is worth it. Still can't get over the deck angle climbing at 85knots. Wow. As to training with Bruce, well worth it, I think I mentioned it before, but we spent 12 hours together and I feel much more comfortable with the airplane than before.

It used to run cooler than that. I was hoping to see a significant drop in temperatures as the engine breaks in, but that hasn't been the case, a small drop after first 5 hours and that's about it. It also doesn't help that all my flights have been in 95+ F surface temperature range. On my 12,000 foot 4 way runs it was still close to 20C at that altitude. I've been keeping my cowl flaps about 1/2 open in cruise and that keeps everything below 400F at a cost of about 2 to 3 knots of airspeed. Now that it's finally cooler, I'm going to try to go up tomorrow morning and see what's up. I seem to have no problems what so ever peaking at over 1650 at most power settings over 26inches and 2400rpm. I don't like the 2200 setting. At 2400, my engine is turbine smooth after prop balancing and at 2200, the vibration increases. Still much less than my Arrow or Super D (RIP) at any setting, but at 2400, there is no vibration in the cabin what so ever. Andy

So I decided to go out to MN and get some training with Bruce Jeager. Spent entire day last Friday and 4 hours on Sunday. Worth the price. 12 hours of training set me back $525 plus fuel. A fully loaded M20M will take off and fly with flaps fully down, gear down and speed brakes out and still climb at around 400fpm. Good to know. As to the new engine, can't get #1 to stay cool, no matter what I do. 420 in climb, close to 400 in cruise at 30/2400. Seems to run EGT 75 higher than the rest. Any thoughts? As per Bruce, if I want my exhaust to last, I need to keep my TIT around 1550, not 1650 and don't even think about 1750. Any thoughts? Keep the RPM up as well, so none of the 2200rpm power settings unless it's 24inch MP so as the turbo doesn't work as hard. I agree. Did some 4 way runs this morning at 12,000, DA closer to 14,000, here is what I found, 25 hours on the engine so far: 30/2400, pumping 20gph to keep TIT at 1550, 190knots 28/2400, pumping 19gph to keep TIT at 1550, 184knots 26/2400, pumping 16.5 to keep TIT at 1550, 178knots 24/2400, pumping 15.5 to keep TIT at 1550, 167knots 24/2200, pumping 13 to keep TIT at 1550, 161knots At 26/2400, engine runs cool, TIT is cool, I'm seeing close 180knots, I'm a pretty happy camper. I know my fuel burn would go down considerably if I run peak TIT, but that exhaust transition is a $7K piece. So, from other Bravo drivers, where do you run your TIT? How many hours, what has been your experience.

I assume you have dual alternators. Are you sure it's dead? What's happening? If it's dead, talk to Maxwell, he seems to have some kind of direct connection to Zeftronics. They won't touch it directly and it will take months to get one thru Mooney. Don charges $250 flat fee for these. But before you decide it's dead, tell me what's happening. There is actually two separate voltage regulators in the box so I'd be a bit surpised if both died at the same time. Now, one is always asleep, slaved to the other one. Have you tried swapping the two plugs? What happens then? If you're going over voltage or poping ALT field breaker, try disconnecting one lead at a time and then swapping them side to side. You might have a problem with field sense wire/connection and not the voltage regulator. Most A&P really do not understand electricity so you can spend a fortune tracking these things, ask me how I know. Also, plane power makes PMA voltage regulators for Mooney with a slaving option. I don't know if M20K is on the PMA list but if it is then it's an option. It's not an option for my M20M but I have one prewired sitting in my passenger side pocket anyway just in case. If you get the plane power unit, you'll need to order new plugs, mouser.com is a good source for the 9 pin plugs.

David, I reviewed my notes from my previos flights, 24/2200, pulled to peak at 12,000 gives me a fuel flow of 11.5 per hour at less than 1650 TIT. The speed I get is about 155knots, not 160knots, sorry. I find my Bravo with TKS is still about 5knots faster than the book at all power settings. My TKS panels are extremly well blended in and my gear doors are adjusted correctly. My fuel flows seem to match the book up until 32/2400 when are about 1 gph higher. On 16gph, I get 185, not 190, 190 requires pumping about 17 thru the engine. I was a bit optimistic in my memory ;-) Now, I haven't flown the airplane with a new engine yet. If I get back into town before the weekend, I might, or I might wait for Bruce Yeager to show up next week to give me a new check out, being I haven't flown anything for 4 months now, unless you count operating an autopilot on a Pilatus for a couple of flights. Andy

Quote: TLSDriver Spoke to Gami about running LOP with my Bravo. Here is what they said: 1) Most Bravo engines don't like running LOP. 2) Even if yours does most Bravo owners can't stand the speed loss. They purchaesd a Bravo to go fast. 3) Exhaust systems on the Bravo are getting hammered running LOP. Any money saved on fuel could be offset by costly repairs. .... just the messanger. David

Quote: M016576 To quote all smiles signature block: some things are best left to professionals. I firmly believe that hard IFR flight and thunderstorm penetration are two such things.... All the "toys" in the world won't keep you safe if you don't know how and *when* to use them. Unfortunately, ive never met a pilot that says that they are "below average" in skill or decision making (much like drivers...). Yet I promise half of us are....

Quote: Piloto You are overlooking all the other weather parameters that XM offers suchs as NEXRAD, satellite, winds aloft, metars, forecast, top of clouds, TFRs, icing. and accurate lightning that the Stormscope does not provide. As far as performance due to the poor range accuracy of the Stormscope the range error is worst than any error on the XM data. When approaching an airport, with XM I have a much more accurate idea of the weather location than with the Stormscope dots. If you are maneuvering the Stormscope weather depiction smears unless you clear the dots after stablishing a new heading. With XM\WX the angular and distance depiction is instantaneous. My opinion is that due to Stormscope poor range accuracy and latency is not good at all for maneuvering around weather. What Stormscope is good for is in areas where there is no XM coverage. José

Quote: Piloto astelmaszek As the NTSB indicates the NEXRAD delays are rare. Since you are experienced with the Stormscope how do you assess if the activity it indicates is closer than your destination or farther than your destination. Unlike the XM\WX lighning detection accuracy of 0.2nm the Stormscope range accuracy is 50% of the scale. So you could be flying into real time lighning that is closer than indicated. José

Can we all at least agree that T-Storms when viewed from a distance are very pretty ;-) Image below is from 18K, the storm to the side is still just building and it is at least as high over me as I am over the ground.

Quote: Piloto The NEXRAD lag that some experience is not that much due to the XM broadcast but to the XM receiver that misses WX updates due to antenna shadowing effect when located inside the cockpit. The same happens with ADS-B WX. With an external XM antenna the oldest WX I have seen is 6 minutes. Keep in mind that NEXRAD is used by ATC to guide pilots around weather and is also used for tornado warnings, so it can not have much of a lag. Satellite image is useful in prediciting areas of high weather activity before lighning or precipitation occurs. Satellite image is very useful in predicting and assessing hurricane formation over the ocean. When NY Oceanic Radio issue SIGMETS for the North Atlantic they are all based on satellite images. José

I got tired of dealing with the frog eaters (Zodiak Aerospace) and their non existent customer service and their inability to answer simple questions. I found that HRD Aerospace has a PMA for all old Scott kevlar oxygen tanks. $1700 from them vs $2400 from frog eaters. Shipped door to door in 3 days. Same tank as all are made by SCI and probably cost $300 for other uses without that FAA part number attached.So now, I need my altitude compensating regulator overhauled. Actually, I don't because it works fine, but might as well. Turbine Rotables quoted me $640. I can live with that. I assume what's involved is pulling out an airgun, blowing out the dust and typing up an 8130. That's what it took to overhaul my density and pressure controllers (plus an o-ring), seriously. So I asked them if a new boss fitting o-ring in included in the overhaul. The answer was, no, another $100. WTF? For a metal o-ring? Is there another source for that part? A 300 series stainless steel metal o-ring? Any ideas?