AndyFromCB

Yes, 10%, in case of a mooney mount, 0.16mm, aka a spec of rust. It really doesn't take much to make an engine mount "unfair worthy"

Be careful, too close of a look can end up costing you quite a pretty penny. If any of the tubes are less than 90% original thickness then off the mount goes. Ask me how I know ;-)

Q: How does a Mooney fly if the prop comes off? A: Gravity But yes, I have also heard of the engine coming off the mounts and the cowling holding it in place. All of the sudden the million quarter turns needed to be taken off to take a peak at the engine don't sound so terrible.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-KG-258-Horizon-Gyro-060-0020-01-NO-RESERVE-/290824969055?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item43b684db5f&vxp=mtr

Byron, Yes and no, I am by nature kind of a digital/aspbergers child, seriously, I could have passed my ifr checkride at 5 hours. I spent the next 35 hours burning time between Omaha and Denver and chicago taking on the radio and dealing with the endless icing and thunderstorm that midwest is.I am not however a natural flyer so once off instruments like last 200 feet, that's where I need practice. Missed approaches I can fly all that long, needles and charts speak to me ;-) I memorize the whole plate looking at it once. ifr flying is just like playing a video game or programming one. Supposedly my autopilot will work again after this annual so we'll see if I get lazy again. I will never be an air show pilot, I simply do not have that level of feel/connection with my airplane. My basic flying skills always seem to need practice, it's not that I'm unsafe but I am by the numbers flyer. So I need a lot of practice in windy conditions so I always pick my training days to where it's blowing. One nice thing about Iowa, they are not hard to find. My basic private took close to 85 hours, my ifr I passed at 40.3. Also, I fly my approaches flaps less at 120 so missed approach is nothing more but mixture/power/10 degree pitch up. I make th hardest part the easiest. Andy

Never, I drive to the bank to deposit money that my mechanic then spends on whores and whiskey and bandwidth to send me updated photos of my airplane. But seriously, I fly once a month with an instructor, usually 3 approaches to min or less with full stops. I find missed approaches pointless, you've done one, you've done them all. The transition from 120 at 200 feet to 75 over the fence is what requires practice. Then whatever trips my schedule demands. So a lot of Kcbf-kdsm, Kcbf-kfar between offices, kcbf-kdec, all and all about 200 hours per year. About 6 trips to the mountains per year. About 6 trips to Chicago area too. So I'd say about 24 personal flights per year. But I actually don't like flying that much, for me it's a means to an end.

Pledge

In case of the later model J with 2900 gross weight, no landing gear component changes were made, but the tubular cage is made from thicker walled steel. Andy

Actually, I find the Mooney wing to be highly optimized for flight between 16,000 and FL250 ;-) Much better wing for flying high than a Tornado Alley A36 or a Cirrus SR22. The airframe/wing have strength to spare, even at 4000lb a Mooney wing exceeds the 5.7 ultimate load factor by about another 4Gs. And lord knows the climb rate is not an issue, my Bravo routinely climbs out at 1100fpm even when accidentally overloaded by about 160lb which to be honest is what happens most of the time heading west if taking off from near sea level airport. I do however religiously obey the 3200lb landing weight. You are correct in stating that the landing gear for designed for lighter airframe. So were the brakes. I find the brakes on my M20M to be just barely adequate for the weight. However, back to the originally question. If you look at all the gross weight increases over the years and various retrofit kits, they all involve either landing gear components or tube thickness used in the roll cage.

On a Mooney, it's mostly an issue of landing gear and tubular structure differences like the M20J 2900lb example.The landing gear has always been the weak point in Mooney design. The rest of the airframe apparently does not care if you overload it. Imagine a redesigned landing gear, VGs to lower the stall speed and 310hp in a Mooney airframe. At 13lb/hp a horsepower, we could have a 4000MTOW aircraft, a true full fuel, full people, full luggage aircraft. One can dream ;-) Or buy a TNed A36.

Best one ever I got in Chicago was: maintain 160 until FAF.

The final verdict is scratch is over 16% thickness of the tube so the engine mount is in MN getting some new tubes. The tube at that point is only 1.6mm thick. No Mooney until second week of December so I just decided to let them fix all 39 little issues they found, none airworthy so my first annual is $20K, $8K of it is the engine mount, the rest is just a bunch of little worn down parts one expects in a 3500 hour airframe, none needed to be fixed, but might as well get them done in this accounting year. As to the guys who originally effed it up during the engine reinstall, I got a $3800 fuel credit at the FBO.

Can anybody tell me the correct part numbers for M20M/M20R KFC 150 installation: KS 177 Pitch Servo KS 178 Roll Servo KS179 Trim Servo

Parker, Thanks for the info. 12GPH is a pipe dream in a Bravo. Even at 24/2200 the things eats about 13 and that gives you about 165knots at FL180. That's my IFR reserve power setting. 5 gallons per hour is a considerable difference, I agree, that's 3000 per year flown at 100 hours. Pays for a lot of hotels. I never said I could afford my Bravo ;-) Andy

Parker, A 252 hits 190 at FL180 on about 13.5gph, a Bravo hits 190 at FL180 on about 17gph so it is about 4gph more. The engine overhaul on a Bravo is actually about the same cost as TSIO360MB. Mine was 33K, to new parts limits, with new camshaft and cylinders redone at $1200 a pop by Central Cylinder. Would have been 41K with new cylinders but mine only had 1100 hours on them and looked brand new. We did keep the old turbo, mags and fuel pump because they only had 400 hours on them, re-did waste gate and controllers, so a brand new limit overhaul would have been $45K with all new accessories. Just need to find a shop that doesn't charge based on Lycoming price list and the engine is no different than other IO540s work and part wise. And central cylinder does almost all P51 engine overhauls in the country so it's not like it's a small, unknown shop. 2 year, 1000 hour warranty. And TSIO360MB would have been about 41K according to them when I was shopping around. So 45K vs 41K. Not 20 to 40%. I guess I don't know how much the exhaust transition is in the Encore that could make a huge difference. On M20M it's about $5.5K. I bought the Bravo to meet the climb gradients out of Jackson Hole. A M20K just wouldn't cut it. I like to clear all that terrain with at least 3000feet to spare. I still can do 700fpm at FL180 at 105knots, an Encore is down to about 400fpm if both take off at gross. That extra 50hp makes a ton of difference in the mountains. Andy

I don't use TKS fluid to pre spray the airplane, too expensive. I use RV antifreeze in a 1 gallons garden sprayer, does the trick and has pretty good holding power on the ground when it's snowing. Windshield fluid freezes too quickly and too low of a temp.

And let me qualify one statement, you can get the published fuel burns at a cost of a new turbo and exhaust transition every 800 hours or so. TIT of 1750 is just too hot. The cylinders won't care because the guides are oil cooled but the exhaust, turbo and wastegate combo will set you back about 12K plus labor for R&R so about 15K so a bit more expensive than 1 to 1.5 extra GPH needed to keep the TIT down below 1600. LOP is out of the question, the engine will do it at lower power settings but you lose too much speed, like 10 to 15 knots. The plane just surges forward when you move the mixture over to ROP. Fuel costs notwithstanding, I'd take the Bravo over 252 because that extra 50 or so HP really comes in handy in the mountains.

Jeev, I posted this in another forum, but I'll report here again. Here is an honest breakdown of Bravo ownership costs, I arrived at after year and half of ownership, having have rebuilt the plane more or less, other than paint and interior: My Bravo breaks down to the following, flown 200 hours per year: Hangar $1500 Insurance $2000 Annual $2500 Maintenance Labor $4000 Subscriptions $1500 Gas/Oil (200 hrs) $25000 FF/Engine Reserves $7500 Parts Reserve $4000 My engine reserve might seem high, but I included R&R costs, plus all the other goodies forward of the firewall. As to parts reserve, there is a lot of them and none of them cheap. Little steering horn was wearing down on my airplane, that set me back $1600. KI256 overhaul was $2500, lasted all of 5 hours, fixed again under warranty. It's little things like that add up to quickly.

Mike, Actually look at your charts. 180knots at that power setting blows the factory chart by about 10knots which is what I always find bravos doing. What nobody seems to be able to accomplish is get the speed at advertised fuel burns but as far as the power settings go, the poh actually underestimates by a lot. Andy

Jeevs, 15.5gph, 27/2350, 1600TIT, 12,500 hits 175 in my tks Bravo at gross weight. it burns about a gallon more at FL200 with the same settings while doing 190. You will burn about 13 gallons getting to fl200. You'll cover about 60nm during the climb. Absolute minimum you want left in your tanks is another 13, about 140nm of range left at that point at 24/2200. It's a very comfortable 800nm machine for two. 700nm if hard ifr at destination and nbaa rules are followed. Andy

If you don't mind feeding the engine, a used Bravo has to be the best deal in aviation today. But fuel it will eat. It's a 190knot machine on about 16.5gph in the lower flight levels. It will do 200 easily but at a cost of 4 more gph. I still climb at 500fpm just like your J but I'm also covering the ground at 140knots in climb. Or 1200fpm at 105. Or an insane climb gradient at 85. the climb never really stops or slows down until about 18k. The extra 500lb of weight over a J makes a lot of difference in turbulence. Plus dual batteries, dual alternators.

I don't know about RainX but Pledge does wonders on my windshield, I just apply before any flight. Learned my lesson a while ago when I had to land sideways. TKS fluid and dust on your windshield make for some blurry vision. Was testing the system in CAVU weather and had to call up approach and tell them I had zero forward visibility.

I actually think it's a bit low, for 200 hours per year, you gas bill should be closer to $25K. Plus your Engine/FF forward reserve is a bit low, too. At 200 hours, it should be closer 9500. It's a 65K engine, plus I added 30K for propeller, exhaust, two turbos and RR labor. My Bravo breaks down to the following, flown 200 hours per year: Hangar $1500 Insurance $2000 Annual $2500 Maintenance Labor $4000 Subscriptions $1500 Gas/Oil (200 hrs) $25000 Engine Reserves $7500 Parts Reserve $4000 So Bravo is about $48K per year flown at 200 hours. Havening have just about restored one to brand new condition and looking over the logbooks, I can attest that the above numbers are correct for 200 hours flown per year. Everybody underestimates the engine reserves because it's not just the engine but also everything else firewall forward that adds up to half the engine cost like exhaust, turbo, controllers and RR labor. I cannot imagine a Mirage would be that much more but for me the initial price of entry was 4x higher. Really, there is only two maintenance areas in a Mirage according to my research that are much more expensive than a Bravo: heated windshield and hydro pack. My parts reserve might be a bit high but then I don't think so, a KFC 150 servo or a KI256 going haywire just about gets you there. I think Mooney was a great name for an airplane, just take out one 'O' ;-)

One great thing about flying from my home base (Omaha, NE) to anywhere in 600 miles radius is we don't have heavy traffic here in the Midwest, it's always direct IFR and when departing VFR Omaha Approach will actually almost insist handing you over to center. I can count on one hand when they didn't ask for type and destination on their own. Getting the GTX330/ES installed at this annual, so with the GDL39 on my 796, I should be able to see same traffic as them. As to lights, on my Arrow I had the landing light flashers and LED lights so they'd always stay on. Haven't installed them yet on 7RD, but they are next on the list.

I can see 40k, to properly maintain a bravo or acclaim flown 200 hours a year, eats about 15k if you add it all up. It's just that a lot of airplanes aren't or the owners do a lot work themselves. I don't have the time anymore. Proper ff reserve is about 10k a year at 200 hours. I'm looking at another 9k this year alone to clean up my landing gear. The little steering horn alone is 1600. These things do wear out.