smccray

If anything I have said is interpreted as putting down any airplane of any kind that's not my intent. There isn't an airplane that exists doesn't have some limitation/tradeoff; there also isn't an airplane anywhere that doesn't have the panel getting older. Every plane has its relative benefits and weaknesses. Integrated panels are fantastic in their capability- arguably better than anything else on the planet. I flew right seat with a friend flying a TBM850 into the DFW area- it was almost cheating how easy it was to manage the airplane. Down side with G1000 avionics is that it's an integrated system as it ages; it's not possible upgrade in stages. My choice- I plan on going with the Dynon system which will set me up for the same problem as that system ages. 10 years newer hardware/systems than the G1000, but it will have it's challenges in the future as well.

Agree- definitely not a minor mod, but someone will develop an STC at some point. Over the next 3 I wouldn't worry much about the G1000 aircraft; 10 years from now I would be a little concerned. Somewhere in between... I don't know.

If Garmin starts driving pricing up on the GFC500 they're going to push people to other options. I'd be willing to bet that Dynon isn't going to start changing pricing significantly- they've already come out and said that the equipment cost is exactly the same as the cost for experimental equipment plus the STC @ ~$2K.

They're setting up their business to benefit themselves. If I were Garmin I would do exactly the same thing. I would rather have a G5 will an attitude reference for the king autopilot too, but if that means I would need to charge $6K instead of $3K for the AI, then it's a fairly simple exercise to look at the cost/benefit. Who knows the relative cost of providing the G5 with a King output vs the GFC500, but I suspect that the Garmin strategy is to do the GFC 500 regardless. At that point, how many incremental G5s will Garmin sell if the output the AI to the king autopilot? How much value is there to Garmin if they lock an airplane into the Garmin ecosystem- the G5 requires Garmin navigators and the Garmin autopilot? Let's not forget that the KI300 is significantly more expensive than either the SAI340 or the G5. For me, it makes more sense to rip out the King system and go with Garmin compared to the KI300 and a G5 HSI. Garmin is IBM- there are a lot of people who will pay more for Garmin because it's Garmin, and that's okay. However, looking at the KI300 + G5, it makes more sense to me to go Dynon. It's going to be fascinating to watch how everything shakes out.

Up to now, G1000 aircraft seem to sell at a premium to non-g1000 aircraft. The planes tend to be newer, but looking at prices near the change-over to glass, G1000 planes seem to be more expensive on average. There's a thread on beechtalk talking about a $60K cost to upgrade a G1000 plane to the latest and greatest G1000 NXI avionics. That's about your only upgrade path to a G1000 plane, assuming that the type certificate holder offers the upgrade. I don't believe the G1000 price premium will continue. As the G1000 gets longer in the tooth, I expect it to become a problem. There have been discussions that the G1000 on the type certificate will be a problem upgrading avionics; I don't expect that to be an issue upgrading. If an owner whats to rip out the G1000 and install a Dynon system for example, I would bet money that it will be feasible. However, you're still looking at a big check for a panel makeover. I don't think it's a big deal either way, only to say that if you look at a 2004 Ovation with steam gauges, a 2005 ovation with the stec autopilot, a 2007 ovation with GFC700, or a 2008 with a WAAS G1000, I would expect the differentiation in the price point to compress over time. The jury is still out on the impact of the Dynon HDX on the used aircraft market, but I expect we'll see an acceleration in in the adoption of glass panels, and an increase in the value of comparably less equipped aircraft as the cost to do a full retrofit including the autopilot is dramatically reduced.

That makes sense- and I may have it wrong. I was actually thinking about it like "pilots discretion" to SSOLO. From the moment you receive the PD clearance (or the descend via instruction) you own the airspace from your current location and below down to the discretion altitude. Crossing SSOLO, you continue your descent below 170 remaining above 13,000 at MSTLO, above 8000 at VADRR, and at 4000 by JEDYE.

ooo- good question- I missed that- those are exact indicated airspeeds not min or max (line above and below the value). I know the Acclaim is fast, but I'm fairly certain the Acclaim can't hit those airspeeds. Not a big deal as the controller can delete the speeds, but certainly something to look for if assigned the arrival. Nice catch! I may be wrong, but I believe that if a controller clears you to descend via the STAR, and the first fix has a altitude from 170, you're immediately cleared to descend to the 170- I know that's how I would have flown it. Doesn't make it right though- hoping someone will come along and confirm which interpretation is correct.

Um.... no. If that's the seller's motivation then stay away. My airplane is in great condition- for an airplane with 5000 hrs on the ticker and for the price. If a buyer wants a perfect airplane it's easy to find- buy a new airplane. There's not a single used airplane out there that's perfect, and any buyer who expects that isn't reasonable. A buyer should expect an airworthy airplane and should have knowledge of anything else on the airplane. If I'm the buyer, I want to know exactly what I'm buying, and if it's an issue of an A&P nit picking, that's my business as the buyer. If I'm looking at a plane and I see that the cupholder is broken, then that's something I should know before I send that plane to prebuy. The 6000 hrs on the airframe by itself wouldn't worry me. If the seller is asking you as the buyer to schedule an annual inspection with his mechanic on the field... why would you as someone other than the owner requisition an annual inspection? I'll send an airplane out for a pre-buy to a mechanic of my choice. As a seller I would be somewhat reluctant to send my plane to an unknown mechanic, but if you're looking at a reputable MSC that wouldn't be an issue. I would closely look at the logs for pencil whipped annuals over the last couple of years.

I receive an arrival every trip back into the DFW area and I've never received a descend via clearance. I suspect that my normal cruising altitude from 8-10K MSL contributes to the lack of descend via instructions. I do generally receive a crossing restriction of 7000 ft at the primary fix on the arrival.

All the J models are great with a few differences among them. The '77 has a throttle quadrant, '78 goes to vernier controls with the 214 prop. Many people start looking at '78, and you can see at that link the improvements made to the J over time. It's not uncommon that later model year upgrades have been made on earlier aircraft, so you have to look. 1 piece belly and separate rear seats are upgrades I would look for, but I wouldn't let those upgrades dictate the decision. A good plane is better than those small differences. The 205 was only produced for 2 years. In 1986 Mooney upgraded the K model from a 231 to a 252. In '87 they took the aerodynamic changes from the 252 and applied them to the J. 28v electrical system, round windows, electric cowl flaps, approach and full flap setting and the most significant was a small structural change. Early J models have a gross weight of 2740 lbs. Late J models (90s?) came from the factory with a gross weight of 2900 lbs. Beginning with the 205 through 1989 or 1990, the 28v aircraft came from the factory with the lower gross weight but are eligible for a gross weight increase. Aircraft tend to get heavier over time- early model years tend to have better useful loads than later model years due to upgrades. The 205 is special because they are early in the run of J models with the higher gross weight increase. My plane has 1024 lb useful load.

The eagle was a failed concept- take top of the line airplane (Ovation), deliberately cripple it with smaller gas tanks and de-rate the engine so it doesn't produce as much power. The idea was to reduce manufacturing cost since the airframe is the same as the ovation... but it doesn't make sense. Top shops have the inspection portion of the annual at ~$2K. Defer maintenance all year and the total cost at annual is higher. Take care of things when they break and the total expense at annual is cheaper. Depending on how much work you want to do yourself your maintenance cost will be less. The Mooney systems are cheaper to own on average as compared to other retractable aircraft (182, 210, bonanza) because the gear systems are simpler.

300 mile trip in that part of the country- I would start with the J as a baseline. A good J will run you between $90 and $130+. The IO-360 engine has a reputation for making TBO and as overhauls go it's reasonable. The 6 cylinder engines on the K and the long bodies are substantially more expensive to overhaul. A K model is the same cabin and roughly the same price for the plane on the low end. An '86 or later K model will be $150 (or at least it will be that much after you take care of the run out engine). The plane will carry 3 adults just fine, but the guy in the back seat might be a little cramped. Long bodies will save 15-20 min on the flight, increase the capital cost and burn more fuel. If you want air conditioning then you're looking at an Ovation- I would budget $170-180K for the purchase. It's a $30K bill to add A/C to an Eagle.

Welcome to Mooneyspace! Mooneys come in a lot of different categories- this could go a number of different directions depending on your goals. In summary, Mooneys come in three different body lengths with a handful of different engines. Short Bodies (look at C and E models), Mid Bodies (F, J, and K models) and Long Bodies (Bravo, Ovation, Eagle, Acclaim). There are a few more out there- keeping it high level for now. The Bravo is in a special category when it comes to capability- if you need one you probably can't do much better in an all weather traveling machine for the dollars until you get up to Turbine. It's also a more expensive model to run. Step 1) which airframe: Mid bodies are great in terms of efficiency and economics. Long bodies are still very efficient aircraft and have a little more room in the cabin, but they're still very efficient compared to other brands. Short bodies are older and it sounds like you're looking for a newer airframe. Step 2) Turbo or non-turbo Mid Bodies: Turbo is a K, non-turbo is a J, assuming you want to stay with a newer airframe. If you're looking for an efficient traveling machine with a lower cost of ownership. The J model is going to be cheaper to run than the K, and speed will be about the same (or so close it doesn't matter) below about 8K ft. Above 8K the turbo starts making a big difference. Long Body: Turbo is a Bravo or an Acclaim,- it's a turbo charged traveling machine. They'll be more expensive to run than an NA engine, but they're a great option if you want to go high. Non-turbo is an Ovation or an Eagle- same IO-550 as you've looked at on a Bonanza. If you need load carrying ability, you'll want to look at whether or not you have the option to exchange fuel for payload- the Mooney is more efficient that other models which makes the real world load carrying ability more valuable. Most of the long bodies see useful loads at around 1000 lbs or less with the exception of the Eagle. The M20S Eagle was originally a stripped down ovation, but many owners have upgraded the engines to 310 HP and improved the airplanes such that there's little difference. One of the big differences is an autopilot with only an altitude hold instead of a 2 axis autopilot that will fly an approach. Eagles are fairly rare due to low production numbers, but useful loads are frequently well above 1000 lbs. It's also not uncommon to see J models with useful loads over 1000 lbs. You have to look a little harder as the J model loads seem to vary between 900 and 1050 lbs, but you can find them at the upper end. The J will cruise at 150-155 KTAS on ~9 GPH. Push a little more fuel and you can get some additional speed. Sorry- that post was a little all over the place...

$8k for that combination would be pretty good. I dropped an 830 next to my altimeter and I love having it right in front of me. Going for a 900 vs an 830 would be a challenge- not sure it would fit without redoing the panel. I wouldn't spend the $ to redo the panel for a 900 without going to either Dynon HDX, or waiting to see what happenes with the Dynon/Garmin competition. Check on the Dynon engine monitor pricing compared to the JPI. If you're looking at a pair of G5s, GFC 500 plus a JPI900... go Dynon.

How did you template it? Any chance you can trace your final shapes onto brown paper?

Okay- obvious question- how is this legal? Is this just a piece of the "interior" that is replaced?

2 things stick out from my transition training- 1) I transitioned with ~90 hrs with a high time former F15 pilot doing my training. My first flight I was completely overwhelmed at just how much faster everything happened compared to the 172 I trained in. At one point, out of respect for him, I stopped flying deferring to him. I was very sternly corrected- no matter what, never stop flying the airplane, and never forget that I'm responsible for the flight no matter what. No matter how experienced the guy next to me, or no matter what ATC might ask me to do, if I'm not comfortable I'm not doing it. It's a lesson I haven't forgotten. 2) The Mooney (I assume the E is the same as my J) will get really mushy on the controls, but it won't fall out of the sky at 100 kias. Slow down early- especially on your first couple of flights. Pull the power back and slow down- "we love to fly fast" but that's a recipe for disaster if you're not ahead of the plane. I was completely overwhelmed at just how fast everything happens and I didn't slow down early enough. In reality you have plenty of time, and remember #1- never stop flying, and if you get too far behind go around, or even fly away from the airport and start all over.

And the add in 2016 said 2050TT. Current TAP add days 2010TT.

Great idea! So I've seen two schools of thought advocated- buy a low time engine, or buy a high time engine and redo the engine. VREF likes to straight line the engine value, but in reality the first 200+ hrs are free (buyers will pay the same as a new engine) and the last 200+ hrs are free (buyers will see the engine as run-out). Plenty of people look and can't get over the risk of owning a plane. It's a real risk and not something I like to think about, but it's real. I wanted a traveling airplane with some speed. Part of the reason I ended up with a J is that the IO360 has a reputation of being a pretty solid engine. The big bore continental engines have a reputation of going through cylinders; I wasn't comfortable with a potential $10K bill to redo the cylinders on the engine. It's always a risk, but the engine / speed combination of the J model made a lot of sense to me. You have to get comfortable with the risk, but I absolutely love owning a plane and will continue as long as I have enough time to fly (either business or pleasure).

2010 TT and 850 since the Bravo Conversion. Reading between the lines, does that mean the engine is technically 2010 total time?

For the J your fuel burn is about right for block times- maybe a little high. I assume 150 ktas @ 9 GPH in cruise. Annual inspection is $2k plus maintenance- probably another $3-5k all in for the year including oil changes and other incidental maintenance. Engine overhaul is probably in the ballpark from what I've seen but I haven't done one. i don't have first hand experience but from what I've read your Bravo numbers are light. I've toyed with the idea of that upgrade- fuel burn @ 18-20 GPH. Others have posted $75k total for a Bravo reman after taking care of all the hoses and accessories. Insurance will be higher due to higher hull value. Maintenance- not sure but I would assume it would run at least double the maintenance of the J with annual inspection a little higher- 25% more? That's a guess. $150k will buy one of the nicer J models around. A lot of Bravo owners are asking ~$200k for their birds which I don't see. There's a lot of value in the capability, but I worry about the market for M20Ms in 5+ years paying $180+ for any steam gauge M20M with more than 750 hrs on the engine, but that's a different thread. Either way you go there are great examples of both the J and the M here.

Staying with the King system doesn't make sense to me given the options. You get rid of the 256, but you keep the HSI- you're out $5300 plus install. You still have the HSI (which I don't find to be reliable). So you replace the HSI, you spend $3K plus install on the Garmin G5 and it interfaces with the king autopilot. While you're in there, you go ahead and take care of your ADSB out needs, low cost at another $2K. These are my needs today- that's $10K and I have a king AI and an old king autopilot. Going with the Garmin setup, I spend $13K plus install and I end up with a digital autopilot that adds altitude preselect and envelope protection. That 3K difference makes sense to me- I wouldn't add the King AI unless there is a reason you can't install a non-TSO'd autopilot like the GFC500, assuming we get that option for the M20 series. However... if we compare the $13K Garmin setup with the $16K from Dynon... pretty easy to see where I'm headed. Add a couple extra $ and you end up with a 2 screen system with fully redundant AHARS, redundant WAAS gps (not IFR at this point), full engine monitoring... it's a game changer.

Pricing is probably $16K of equipment, plus the STC plus installation. I had a little notice that something was coming, so I've been working on a replacement Dynon panel. See the Dynon Pricing Worksheet here: http://pricing.dynonavionics.com/ There's a For a basic single panel system the Dynon pricing probably looks something like this: Selected Items Here is a breakdown of your currently select kit. Part ID Name Qty Cost $13,110.00 SV-HDX1100 SV-HDX1100 10" SkyView HDX Display Bundle 1 $4,580.00 SV-ADAHRS-200 ADAHRS - Primary Module 1 $1,200.00 SV-GPS-2020 GPS-2020 Compliant Receiver / Antenna 1 $590.00 SV-GPS-250 GPS 5Hz Receiver / Antenna 1 $200.00 SV-ARINC-429 ARINC-429 Interface Module 1 $475.00 SV-BAT-320 SV-BAT-320 Backup Battery 1 $180.00 SV-EMS-220 1st SV-EMS-220 Engine Monitoring Module 1 $600.00 EMSKIT-L4F EMSKIT-L4F - Lyc./Cont./Superior, 4-Cyl, Fuel Injected 1 $680.00 SV-NET-SERVO SV-NET-SERVO - Network Autopilot Servo Cable Kit 2 $110.00 SV32 SV32 Autopilot Servo 1 $750.00 SV32 SV32 Autopilot Servo 1 $750.00 SV-XPNDR-261 SV-XPNDR-261 Class 1 Mode S Transponder 1 $2,200.00 SV-ADSB-472 SV-ADSB-472 Dual Band Traffic and Weather Receiver 1 $795.00 Add in the $2600 D10a and you're in the $16K ballpark. I've been cooking up a little more extensive panel redo. Not sure that I can move the radio stack, and not sure I want to.

You always need a chunk of money laying around just in case. You pay your money, you take your chances... and cross your fingers you don't have to tap into that chunk of change.

I hadn't something similar with the KAP150- DMax re-seated the AI connection and it worked perfectly.