N9201A

Skidding is cross-controlling. Cross-control stall=spin entry. Have you read this? May answer your question. http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins2.html

Also, may need to be a big-ass truck.

LOC-I is stall. ONLY cause of stall? Exceeding critical AoA. This is out of slide deck posted earlier (thank you). These objective presenters effectively present root message (at least for me) of this thread, cutting through the noise: Be aware of your AoA when maneuvering, because not being aware of it is a greater threat to your life than airspeed -- OR bank angle.

40% of fatals due to loss of control-inflight (LOC-I), and #1 result of

The skidding turn video is an awesome explanation that lays out the simple fact: The lack of understanding of angle of attack and basic aerodynamics causes fear of bank, when really it should be fear of critical AoA, and that fear causes the skidding turn - which "is a killer." No recovery possible...even Yeager or Hoover can't save that one...but they avoided it!!

To misquote (only slightly) an all-time great aviation film, The Bridges At Toko Ri: "Where do we get such (wo)men?" And KEEP them, by the way...I've NO interest. Now excuse me, I must vomit.

Nihil sub sole novum ("nothing new under the sun", to save you time:

Eric if you're interested in form flying we are doing a clinic in Visalia weekend of 21-23 October. PM me if you're interested.

Good luck with your new bird. It's a fun time machine!

Welcome Turtle. I've got a friend I formate with who's got the fastest F I've seen (with PowerFlow also) and he stays with Es and Js...although not mine, as I also have a PowerFlow, but it's not a significant difference. Get used to being asked to slow down when they're routing you into GA traffic in SoCal, it's kind of fun when you've been flying trainers. I jumped from a 150-horse Warrior so I shared your glee at those calls. Owner-assisted is a great call. I wish I had done it on my bird sooner, it really expanded my knowledge. Jerry Manthey published a great owner maintenance book - I'm not sure he is still doing the seminars but that was a very worthwhile learning experience as well. I have found some great time-saving technical tips here and also tried to benefit from collective experience of other Mooney owners. Like anything else, obviously, it's important to collect as much data as possible and not rely exclusively on one source.

Actually there remains some controversy over whether friendly AA, British gunfire, or a mechanical defect brought Max Immelmann down. But no one claimed it was his signature maneuver...or a steep turn.

Mike how did your ASI failure almost cause a stall? I'm a Ralph Butcher devotee where I read of the concepts of "gaits," and I use them. So setting power and pitch yields what it yields in your plane, every time (assuming you HAVE power). Cover up the ASI and the airplane doesn't know the difference. Those settings yield the same performance. Were you being misled you were too fast and cued to pitch to slow down? What was the situation?

An Immelman criticizing a steep turn? What would Grandpa Max say? ;^)

Yes everyone should fly within their limits. I have found my limits have changed with experience, but I'm aggressively always trying to learn more. Experience in more advanced aircraft and worse conditions caused me to minimize flying a single piston at night. As various challenges sharpened my stick and rudder skills, I'm more capable in challenging winds or maneuvering. Over the last 30 years I've noticed my practices and limits evolving while some peers have stopped learning. A couple because they've learned it all, just ask them, some have scared themselves, but most because of stagnation, honestly. Some of these peers will still launch their singles to Vegas at night but chasten me about "flying close to another airplane." Like a sailing instructor once told me, "different horses for different courses." Or Harley v. sport bike (I enjoy both). To each his/her own, just be kind about it.

Or just go to website and click "join forum" at bottom of home page and you'll be on email list and will get updates and know what's happening before it is posted on website.

Danb if you PM me I will send you contact for NE group which have become very active. Seven pilots meeting this weekend to practice and they're doing a fly-in in a couple weeks. There has been a lot of growth in NE in the last year. So everyone in the NE wanting to should be able to fly with us in 2017.

+1 on Nordo and local pilots. Watched a Pitts depart then do 180 into downwind from 1/3 of way down runway, turning into and ahead of 2 planes on proper downwind who'd announced themselves. When I learned to ride a motorcycle I got good advice that I use at U/C fields. Approach these airports like someone is trying to kill you.

Watch caravan website and it'll be posted. Don't think firm date yet. Not an event to miss, it's a great time.

And no I don't have an AoA indicator, but that doesn't mean I reject the significance of AoA. And for anyone feeling left out, that they can't be a "formation guy" (or gal), well shoot. Just come out and fly with us, I'll make sure you get a safety if I can't safety you myself. We were all non-formators once too, but those "mean kids" actually were all right, once we got down to flying (as opposed to sitting at computer screens pontificating). And for me, the flying is where it's at. Someone wanted to put up a thousand dollars somewhere here for something. Now I'm not gambling my kids' college money, but were I to do so, it's a safe bet after trying formation, you won't come away a worse pilot. That's a fact... Facts are facts...deal with them or not, but don't expect those that know better to buy your version of reality.

"All the formation guys"....??? Aw, Nobody, were the big boys mean to you? Poor thing. Maybe you can grow a Chia dog and experience unconditional love.

Has anyone seen any published guidance by the FAA that this suffices? Would the rationale apply to all paper?

Cannot stress enough importance of objective review, and it's difficult for any shop to be objective about its own work. Nothing to do with integrity, just like a "second opinion." It's a lot of money to spend without getting objective advice. Also, consider an escrow.

Kelty and JohnB, I've circulated info via Caravan email group. So if you've signed up, you received my email. If you've not, pm me. If I know in advance, I will ensure you've got a safety pilot when you arrive. Please read the Guide and watch the ground video -- both are available under the Training tab. If you can't make Visalia, plan for Yuma in February. Hope to see you sometime!

Welcome Scott. Plan for Yuma in February, that's an excellent newbie event. Once you've gotten basic maneuvers down, you'll be able to arrive at OSH in style. Since you're from SoCal, you'll benefit from many local pilots who meet up often to practice. Some of us fly across country together to MSN, from which our group stages into OSH. Look forward to meeting you.

Lack of AoA awareness kills a lot of pilots. But lack of an AoA indicator isn't the same as lack of AoA awareness. Yeager, Hoover and others flew P51s in combat without AoA indicators. That's doesn't mean they didn't have any awareness of AoA. One can have AoA awareness without a gizmo...not precise, admittedly, but enough that this awareness enhances your flying and safety.