N9201A

Hi Mike, Thanks for your enthusiasm. I don't know what "issues have been presented." Bucko is a Caravan board member, Squadron Lead, and on our Ops Committee as a FAST carded Lead. He's also "Exhibit A" evidence of a person who stepped up and made it happen in a region. So, if he wants to make a clinic happen in FL, he is the right guy and knows how. We speak often and work on Caravan business together, and he's mentioned nothing to me about any "issue." If he needs Caravan organizational help, he will have it, and I am sure I will be one of his first calls. He already has Lee, who's our Safety officer and has the written materials (he drove a significant revision of our Guide this spring) and I am sure other qualified safeties will step up, as the regional commitments and their time permit. We are a dedicated group, and selfish--more form pilots mean more people for us to fly with! Of COURSE we work within a common format and structure. That's what makes this work--it's all about the discipline. A newbie will be flying feet away from another aircraft. Newbie pilots have to show up having read and watched everything. They have to be doing ONLY form flying that weekend, and have no distractions. And it needs to be in an environment where there is adequate ground support, airspace, runways and tower help to support the activities. I mentioned safeties are ALWAYS the limiting factor. But guess what? When you've got guys doing it for a few years and few hundred form flights, you'll DEVELOP them. And be patient, because the difference between doing simple two-ship Caravan flight stuff (and that is what it is, even though with three planes) and anything beyond that is much more complex than it seems. Many of us ... this pilot included ... have learned that the hard way! Your Jan 1 fixation is misplaced. Read my post re element lead discretion. I am more conservative than Caravan policy: If you're in my element and we haven't flown together, we are flying together at KMSN or you're not in my element. Many element leads fly to KMSN with their wings, or find time to go up before OSH, which is becoming easier as we grow and pilots can find each other locally. Practically speaking, no one goes to a clinic in the fall and does not fly form again until the Caravan...look at the other posts here. Once someone is safe to practice basic stationkeeping, all they need to do it is another form pilot! So we do it OFTEN! Why? It's FUN!! Many of our Caravaners fly to KMSN in formation. Since 2011, I've flown from CA to KMSN and only once (when I flew Lead) did I have to worry about weather, navigate, or talk to ATC - because I was flying wing. And each flight was SAFER than had I been alone. We've had aircraft develop mechanicals (I did once too) and having teammates reduced stress and increased safety. THIS is also part of the camaraderie, and why we do it. I'm glad to hear you have a "tent pole" volunteer to stand up and take on administration. It should be a local person because there will be a lot of admin coordinating and the goal is to identify and have interested local pilots show up and leave being able to practice together locally. Then they will build a local form group. One caveat from a guy who's done a bunch of these: LOTS of people SAY they're interested. The proportion that actually show up is directly related to the commitment required BEFORE showing up. So when you say "there's interest" that's great, but form flying isn't for everyone. So keep in mind it's not like a Young Eagles day. Participants have to really prepare and show up ready to work. So if someone just wants to see what it's like, go to a clinic as a passenger. Or just hitch a ride at a practice session, or ask any local form pilot to ride in the right seat. It's not for everyone, just like aerobatics or IMC isn't. So try a ride first to determine if the "interest" is strong enough to warrant a clinic. Hope this is helpful, look forward to hearing from Bucko and Lee about it.

Bob, that is AWESOME!! Have fun!

EXACTLY!! How indeed? I guess release the security without the bill paid? S - S = 0 I'm done here..

Um...yes...? If seller HAS security -- my original premise -- then seller RELEASES security (your changed hypothetical fact), then seller would have "NO security." That is unarguable...kinda like not bothering to get security would be just like having "NO security." See earlier comment re "avoidable problem." Where S is Security: S - S = 0

Of course, as I also wrote, there are those who seem to like completely avoidable, self-created problems....

Uh, that would be the "adequate security" referenced in my sentence you quoted. Others have mentioned requiring the Buyer to prepay a set inspection fee. That's wise too. Or don't, I don't really care. But now that you've read this thread, don't expect any sympathy as a seller when a flighty buyer sticks you with the prebuy tab.

PowerFlow also makes a great product. I was an early adopter on my 201 and documented real gains in climb and speed. Flying close form with many other Mooneys, I can confirm from personal experience the real performance advantages observed in aircraft with the upgraded exhaust system.

Yes, from the shop perspective, the client is the guy paying the bill. Which is why if you're a seller, you can stuck if buyer does not pay the bill, whatever the reason, or if there is a dispute between shop and buyer. Buyers bail for lots of reasons, and all of them feel justified about it. Doesn't help seller if your plane is in hock. Don't let buyer run process unless you've got adequate security or just like painful, completely avoidable problems. And this has nothing to do with trustworthiness. You wouldn't buy it without an inspection of some type, right? So it's not about trust. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow. That's an incredible adventure. AND a marathon?! Thanks for sharing, Flash. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do not recall any "business" being discussed at any such meeting....

Any element lead has full discretion as to who is on her/his wing. More often than not, and our growth has permitted this, each element is composed of pilots from a region who've flown together. A good practice - again, it depends - is to assign a newbie as "no. 2" to the lead who served as that newbie's safety at a clinic. As we have grown, and as strong leadership has taken charge of each region, that regional leadership has been able to do the line-ups for each element from their region. This was the first year we were able to do that 100%. Obviously, when a new region/squadron is standing up, it must depend on others (and other appropriate local resources) for support. So while West Coast guys came out to help Bucko set up Texas, now Texas sports a strong, active group that can support other regions. We all try to pay it forward, including helping other groups. Understanding comes with experience and knowledge. Come out and try it, and some of your questions will be answered ... and others replaced with more questions!

Since you raise it, and there are many on this forum who don't know it, I will gladly share the Caravan formation story -- as I saw it unfold. 2005 was my first (cannot speak to earlier, but guys like Piehler and Jonathan Paul can) and yes, the gaggle is NOT optimal. I watched attendance decline year over year. I watched and listened to some pilots say "never again." I thought about that too. One year I rented a house under Fisk and what I saw after watching convinced me that the Caravan was still safer, as the pilots were all at least organized, briefed, in the same types and expected to be close. So I stayed with it and got to know more regulars. Among them were a few form pilots, not just JPaul but also Richard Bristow, Ernie Brock, and Mort Boyd. They regularly flew form with the B2Osh guys here on the West Coast and invited me to go. Numerous other people within and without had advocated going to an all-formation format. Others argued that we were too small a group, could never amass the expertise, we could never get people trained, and that we would "scare people away." Personally, as a GA-only pilot with no form training, I was apprehensive, but open. JPaul sponsored me to the board of directors and I was an element lead and on the board in 2009. 2009 was a turning point - we had an element lead who basically decided he didn't like the spacing in the element ahead of him and decided to fill it ... with his element dutifully in tow. On final, needless to say, there were airplanes where there should not be airplanes. No metal was bent, thankfully, but in the debrief what was more shocking than this element doing what he did -- we had all seen that -- but that he DEFENDED it. This individual had a boatload of ratings and an authoritative position. That discussion led to a decision by the then-board to try a form flight in 2010, and many of us immediately suited up with B2Osh to get ready...and then Sploshkosh happened, so we did not get to fly as a mass form that year (although there was ONE element that did fly in a vic from MSN to OSH). In 2011, we had half the flight as formation and half as "gaggle." While most thought it was success, not everyone agreed we should go "all form." Some still advocated we would lose people, we would scare people, wouldn't train, yadda yadda, But we announced all-form for 2012. Thanks to B2Osh and a LOT of work by a LOT of people, we successfully did all-form in 2012. Yes, we DID lose people, but each year our numbers have grown. Each year has been better and safer and, yes, MORE fun! And today our numbers are higher than the first Caravan...and better than 2009! But more importantly, we are a safer, more fun group. And thanks to volunteers stepping up, today what started as a few West Coast guys flying form is now five strong regional squadrons, with dedicated leadership, operations, and pilots and families who fly regularly together. In fact, as the B2Osh brethren "warned" us, we would be flying together a LOT more locally so we are able to socialize with many pilots we would not have met if we remained a once-a-year gaggle for MSN-OSH. We have many pilots who fly only regionally, or who only make OSH once in a while. We also have pilots who fly across the country to make a clinic. There is an informative deck at the bottom of the FAQ page on the website listing leadership and other key volunteers. There are also training materials and Ops contacts, as well as a "clinic-in-a-box" product for any volunteer who wants to take ownership of an event. Form flying is a team sport, and one must be an active participant. Hope this clears up the "history"...

Ah, I understand why you would think that: Conversation ----> change. Would that a simple suggestion from a wise person would have been enough, the Caravan would have been all-formation form the beginning! Remember, B2Osh abandoned the gaggle within a couple years of trying it. I do remember 2009 well, in fact, you were in my element, Fox, the last one.

Misquoted me again. "The Mooney Caravan" is not some monolith, nor is it some traveling band of "clinic-putter-onners." We are a collection of volunteers who works very hard in our regions. If YOU, or ANYONE, wants a clinic in your region, STEP UP! I gave you a couple of examples of people who had done that. If there is not even enough interest for one guy to say "I will organize/promote/administer/collect lunch$," then that says it, doesn't it?

Ah! I now understand why you might think that. Suggestion ---> Action (years later). Would that it could've been that simple...if a suggestion from a wise soul is all it would have taken, the first Caravan (and every later one) would've been all-formation, limited (as today) to pilots who'd recently demonstrated proficiency. Because certainly there were many such suggestions over time, including from B2Osh, who abandoned the gaggle within a short time of trying their first mass arrival. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, thanks Olaf...Another example of a volunteer who said "I will help," stepped up, and now is a leader who is also responsible for the MooneySpace social at the Mooney North40 HQ tent at OSH. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also, it's Piehler. I'm not sure he's on MS, actually, but my guess is he would be but another of the inquiring minds waiting for the rest of the "history" ... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mike, I am sure I'm not the only one who is very curious to hear the rest of the "history" to which you refer. Can you please elaborate? Inquiring minds want to know....[emoji6] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is extremely important so I broke it out separately. Admin and operations are the difference between a casual airport lunch and actually flying. These are wholly different things, and are treated differently for good reasons. YES, we want ONLY qualified formation safety pilots helping to conduct a clinic. YES, we want ONLY vetted, well-reviewed and oft-updated reference materials in accordance with decades-established protocols that work used. We are doing something dangerous, safely. This isn't about ego or "toes," this is about dong something dangerous, safely. Mindset is everything. If one doesn't have the correct mindset, don't come out. And if it's a "Caravan" event, then yes, Caravan leadership (which is balanced across the US and Canada) allocates organizational resources and balances those against need. Turning to admin, the non-flying related stuff, we don't care who prints the TShirts, collects the lunch money, or scores some cool door prize sponsorship. That's admin. What matters is someone steps up to do it. If no one is willing to do it, that's a pretty good indicator of demand. Where people have stepped up, there are now clinics. It's simple. If there is sufficient demand (again, regional leadership allocates their regional needs with national help - like B2Osh) then there will be a clinic. That's how we went from none - showing up at B2Osh events - to give active regional groups and numerous clinics, some hosting dozens of aircraft including warbirds. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are misreading and misquoting me. Bucko wasn't "Caravan management" when he said "I will host a clinic." He stepped up and volunteered, put the time in and got the word out, secured pilots who actually showed up, and administratively ran a great event. So if you (or anyone for that matter) wants to step up, just do it. What is the "offer on the table"? Don't see you saying "I will administrate it." If someone wants to host a clinic at an airport they can do so. See above. No offer necessary. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Chuck said it's a bad idea to co-locate a clinic with a fly-in or social event. As a CFI I'm sure you recognize that focus issue, even without airspace, traffic and other issues. As I wrote, this is the answer to the question I read you get from many people about how to get form trained. As I also wrote, if you want to be the "tentpole" guy who organizes, publicizes, administers and runs the non-operational part of a clinic, step up. That is how each clinic nationwide got started. Someone stepped up and said "I will do it." Then they got Caravan leadership/operations to help get them the safeties needed to support the mission. But like you wrote, you're busy with the Summit and I totally get that. Who needs ANOTHER project? [emoji15] So the actual answer to why isn't their a clinic for the next person who asks you can be "why don't you organize one, and there could be!" Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, this is why the Owner should control the process. Then just pay the shop out of the sales proceeds. As someone else suggested, if the "prebuy" -- whatever THAT is -- is in conjunction with an annual, worst case Owner has a fresh annual from a shop Owner trusts. Of course, Owner DID have an escrow, right?

One important point is that, unlike an "annual," there is no statutory/accepted definition of "pre-buy." Kind of like in loan biz when they say "pre-qualified" and kinda want you to think it is the same as "approved." This gets folks in trouble when they don't have a clear definition agreed to...

Depends on drafting, but why would an owner subject his bird to being held hostage righteously by a mechanic whom the buyer has decided not to pay? I have seen too many of these scenarios go south. If you own the aircraft, control the process.

Depends on drafting, but why would an owner subject his bird to being held hostage righteously by a mechanic whom the buyer has decided not to pay? I have seen too many of these scenarios go south. If you own the aircraft, control the process.