Shadrach

I cannot fathom electing to fly up a box canyon...into rising terrain...towards a ridgeline in excess of 9000'msl...in August! The DA at his departure airport (4200msl) was ~6300'. He was loaded with 3 adults and two kids, plus bags and fuel. I am sure they were on the heavy side. He could have easily stayed West of the ridge and out of the canyon while attempting to gain sufficient altitude before turning East. Moronic decision making...

Nevertheless, it appears he’s still flying.

I’d estimate a range of 4 to 12 blades. It’s hard to say exactly because conditions vary and the state of the fuel in the lines after shutdown is dynamic. The burbling and sucking sounds you hear when putting the plane away is fuel expanding out of the injector lines and into the intake manifold. So, while I can’t say exactly how many blades it should take to fire off when hot, I can say that it’s prudent not to add fuel to the situation until you’ve verified that it is required. There are times when I have been slow on the mixture and failed to deliver fuel in time to keep the engine running after it has fired. When that happens you have two choices, a short, maybe 3 second prime or alternatively, you can crank and start feeding the mixture in (boost pump off) until it fires. I’ve used both with good success.

I’m pretty sure it was because the author,@1980Mooney elected to delete it. The author of a thread can delete it at any time.

Smirking at a self inflicted wound is inhumane. Like many problems in Aviation, the source is usually the soft, squishy bit behind the yoke. An IO360 will start just fine when hot by simply turning the key until it fires and enriching the mixture. The problem is most pilots new to the system are suspect of something so simple. They feel compelled to do something more to “help”. When that doesn’t work, they grab the shovel and really get to digging.

It does not happen often, but it does happen. Context is rarely offered for the deletion of threads or individual posts. It is almost always driven by a complaint from a form member.

That’s an interesting if not dated write up. I wonder how many 231 owners are willing to run their engines at 2500, 31’ and 50° rich of peak TIT? Another curiosity are M20J power numbers in the test vs the POH for the IO360 in my M20F. According to my POH 7500’ - 2500rpm, max power = 76%. 10,000’ - 2500rpm, max = 70% Yet in the test, the M20J shows 64% and 60% at those altitudes.

30 years earlier, he flew a Cherokee 6 into a box canyon with rising terrain. He flew the plane into the ground but he and his four passengers survived with minor injuries. His poor judgement has injured 5 people in his flying career. He’s very lucky, it’d be best for everyone if he stepped away from airplanes whether voluntarily or otherwise.

The POH for my F model shows max power at 7500’ at 83% and 77% at 10,000. I have never flown a 231. However, I did take off behind a very nice looking example last year. My box stock F model was at least 10kts faster at the same ROC. I thought I was imagining it as he became larger in my windscreen. About that time, tower called me to verify that I still had a visual as they had gotten a collision alert. I jogged to the right and increased pitch a bit. I passed him about 6 miles from the runway and 500’ above him when he turned south at the VOR. I have no idea what climb power setting he was using, but am sure it was conservative. K models do have more cooling drag than their normally aspirated brethren.

Given that he’s an IA based just south of the accident location and is likely plugged into the local GA mx community, it’s likely that he has additional info that is not included in the preliminary report. For instance, he seems to know that the plane had an in flight power failure days before accident. Also, I’m pretty sure that @philiplane is a fan of Surefly products though perhaps not in the dual configuration.

Kevin is a great resource. I would definitely call him. He will be able to diagnose your problem and get things back in order for a reasonable price.

It is unlikely a hardline problem. Could be Servos, could be the head unit, could be hoses behind the panel. First thing I would do is some low speed taxi tests. Find a place where you can make tight turns. The yoke should bank in the opposite direction of the ground turn on either direction. If it does not, something is wrong. Next remove the soft vacuum hoses from the hard lines (red and green) at their couplings which are mounted to the left sidewall under the instrument panel. Verify both right and left side will hold vacuum. Next check the condition of the hoses behind the panel, they will likely be deteriorated if >5 years old. Not much left after that, but the instruments. The pilot valve simply shuts the system on and off. It pretty much acts like a vacuum operated relay. It is actuated by yoke mounted thumb switch or a panel mounted switch which when activated dumps vacuum at the pilot valve taking the system off line.

Maybe put vacuum to the system before tearing into servos. It could be the head unit, which is likely serviceable by https://www.porterstrait.com @Kevin Westbrook

I don't plan for it as it's not a good practice. Nevertheless, I am sure it can be done.

I've never had a reason to do it, but I've little doubt that I could. next time you fly, trim for 90kias , flaps up and gear down. I think you'll find that the pitch attitude for level flight will be sufficiently greater than level pitch thus making a mains first touch down entirely possible, even if not a good idea...

Why would being close to sea level matter if you’re making 100%?

Could it be as simple as the sweep angle relative to the roll axis generates higher parasitic drag and higher AOA for a given pitch attitude? It’s pretty clear that at high AOAs a swept wing has more wing area (especially near the tips) at a higher AOA than a straight wing that’s perpendicular to the roll axis.

I think you meant under 100kts. And while it may not be as effective as with a swept wing, I am not sure that “little effect” is the correct term.

I come in at 1.2Vx but as I get closer to the threshold I’m closer to 1.1 descending with the wing unloaded, power off. If I’ve done it just right (rare), I use up the bulk of my energy arresting the descent and can feel ground effect cushion touch down as I run out of elevator. Almost no float. If I’ve done it less than just right, I float for 100’ or so.

To my knowledge, I have never scraped the tail on my F model but the tie down ring suggests that someone has. I have done many short field landings with the yoke hitting the aft limit right at touchdown. Is it possible that it has scraped without being audible/noticeable in the cockpit?

Sorry...Captain Literal misunderstood the transmission...

It's not quite that simple. Level attitude at what speed, weight, flap setting and CG? Even with the flaps fully deployed and the change in effective wing chord (straight line from trailing edge to leading edge), at reasonable approach speeds the level flight (not level pitch) attitude will still be positive enough to touch down mains first (but not by a lot while in ground effect). With the flaps up, nose up attitude will be even greater. Go do some level, slow flight with the gear down at 80kias or less and note the plane's pitch attitude. It will be significantly higher than level pitch attitude. Adding flaps will lower the pitch attitude at a given speed due to both increased lift, shift in center of pressure (aft) and effective chord change which changes the effective angle of incidence. There is a lot more going on in flight compared to simply observing the airplane on jacks. Bottom line - use the appropriate speed for the weight and configuration. It is indeed possible to fly the mains on well above stall in all configurations, but the slower the better. Nevertheless, while it is possible to fly the mains on with adequate energy to lift off again it is not best practice under most situations with the exception of formation landings were it is SOP.

That looks like a useful setup. Years ago I removed the factory curtains from my bird, thinking that they looked dated. I reinstalled them on the rear windows a few years ago and now view them as a luxury for passengers.

Mooney owners are a diverse group with very different views about what an airplane is used for and what is an acceptable amount of money to devote to aviation. You have folks on the same forum that spent in excess of $750k on their aircraft and folks that spent less than 10% of that. Same with operating costs. A simple, vintage mooney can be operated for less than a C172 in terms of $$ per mile. It costs a lot more to go marginally faster. There’s bound to be some large differences in opinion regarding what constitutes a significant expense. PE firms do what PE firms do…which squeeze out every drop of juice that they can.

@Carl Everitt It's the same diagram. The horn, indicators, throttle switch, boost switch and boost light are tied to the gear warning switch.