M016576

Quote: KSMooniac My initial insurance company also lumped all M20 time into the same bucket, so my ~75 hours of C/E/F time many years ago meant I could get right into my J with zero J time. I still grabbed a CFI friend (that did some instruction in that very plane with the previous owner) for a mini-checkout before I set out on my own. If in doubt, get a letter in writing from the broker or agent, just in case... If I were king, I think I'd lump all short- and intermediate-body Mooneys in one bucket, and all the long-bodies in another.

Quote: peter G500 installed price rarely close to a tube two tube Aspen install price. The G500 install labor alone is generally 2x to 3x what it take to put in Aspen equipment. G500 has no means to support a dual/redundant AHRS architecture like the Aspen 2000 and 2500 systems. Admitedly, I've got a bias, but I also fly behind our product in a Mooney and don't think Garmin comes close to offering the capability and flexibility provided by the Aspen.

Quote: jlunseth I read that discussion. The "moonless night" thing may result in IFR in some parts of the country, or at low altitude. But to give you an idea of what it is like in the teens, I visited my brother in Grand Forks right after I got my IFR ticket. I took off at about 11 p.m. to come home and did a WOT climb to cruise. When I got there I saw city lights off my right wing and thinking it was still GF I thought "that can't be right, I left Grand Forks 15 minutes ago." It was Fargo, about 60 miles south of GFK and 40 or 50 miles from my course. Off my left wing, Little Falls was plainly visible, and a little ahead of that was St. Cloud. In the distance, still about 180 n.m. away, was the sky reflection of the lights from Minneapolis. Lots of little towns in between. Unless there is a very thick lower layer, you are just never without points of reference at night in the teens/flight levels. Not even out west. The towns light up the cloud layer. Mind, this is not a complaint. To me, it is a very safe thing to have points of reference pretty much regardless of the conditions. It is also comforting to know that you have some 35-40 miles of glide if the engine packs it in. About the only time I get into that "moonless night, no references" situation is at low altitude, coming in on an approach, with some kind of cloud layer obscuring the surface.

Quote: fantom With the Aspen, which is VERY slick, you'll get GPSS, thus almost cutting the cost in half, plus you'll have an air data computer, an HSI, a battery backup AI, valuable redundancy, some impressive glass, and about as good an IFR platform as I can imagine for well under 30 grand. No need to put all your eggs, and money, in Garmin futureware.

Quote: FlyDave When I bought my plane the right aileron had just been re-skinned because the previous owner backed it into the hagar door. I looked at the re-skin job and, in my inexperience, didn't think it was a very good job because it had a slight bow in it. I contacted a MSC just outside SF Bay area and they had an aileron they could reskin and ship to me. I was going up that way on business so I flew into their airport to look at it after the reskin. I soon realized how nice a job the people that re-skinned the original aileron did! But the plane had consistent right turn after the re-skin/my purchase so I flew it up to Lasar and Robert made some adjustments (see http://mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=1269) and my plane flys straight and level hands off. If you get it re-skinned correctly it should be fine. I'm not sure how many ailerons the Mooney factory has, but it they have some they're going to be pretty expensive (would insurance cover all of it?) Best of luck,

Quote: jelswick Am I alone in preferring the tactile feel of my 430W's buttons and knobs? My biggest hope out of this is that it brings 530 prices down so that I can afford to add one of those to the 430 in my current stack. Touch screen is a nice idea in my car, but I've been in enough turbulence that I'd rather have the click of the knob vs trying to hit the right spot on a touch screen to tune a frequency when getting bounced around. I'm even happy they couldn't flush mount my Aspens now since I can steady my hand against it's rim while hitting the right button. Afraid I might be becoming a bit antiquated if I'm not excited about this move, but I personally would prefer the 530 to what I saw them roll out and am not looking forward to everything going to touch screen.

Quote: scottfromiowa 20 amu's for an annual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just shoot me. If I received an annual with that amount I'd have to sell the plane. I live in a different world than a lot of folks flying Mooney's that's for sure. Unless the aircraft is damaged from an accident or needs a new engine how, may I ask...do you get an annual with this amount? If you did an interior or paint or windows (cosmetic stuff) that is pricey, but really isn't an "annual". What airframe and engine resulted in this amount? THAT is why I won't go to a Mooney Service Center...

I haven't used either display, but I have looked into them both: To get the Aspen MFD, you first have to buy the PFD...so they kind of double dip you (although I know Peter doesn't see it that way). Total cost for the MFD + PFD + Install is somewhere around $20,000 The MX20's I've been looking at on E-bay and used avionics shops are available for about $2500.00 The Aspen gives you a redundant AHRS, PFD, HSI/MAP and a MFD. The MX20 gives you a MFD with a MUCH bigger screen. If you're happy with your current 6 pack, I'd get the MX20-> it's WAAAAAAYYYYYYY cheaper and has a ton of capability (if you get the chartview function). If you want an all glass solution, you have a couple options for the price: the G500 and the Aspen. If you are looking to maximize bang for the buck the MX20 doesn't seem like a bad option. Just my opinion... JoB

Quote: Piloto Craig I noticed that you have no barometric airspeed indicator or altimeter on your panel layout. Not that I would not trust the triple redundancy of the Aspen but that of its power source (alternator, battery). I have been hit by lightning at the prop and can tell you that the first thing to go is the alternator and battery relay. Luckily I had vacuum gyros and conventional instruments and was able to continue safe flight but no radios or LORAN. The most important instrument in an airplane is the airspeed indicator. It is essentially your lift indicator. Without it would be very difficult to land specially at night. An airspeed indicator may look old fashion but because of its simplicity and total independence is 1000 times more reliable than any electronic indicator. On an electronic indicator such as Aspen, Garmin or Honeywell the air pressure is conveyed to the pilot via thousands of transistors, lines of code an LCD display that could be corrupted by an electric discharge or an overheat condition. On an ASI the pressure is conveyed via a simple metal diaphragm with a needle attached to it. Don't overlook the simplicity and reliabilty of steam gauges, they will keep you safe. Jose

Quote: Piloto Jose

When I lived in Japan, I drove a car that was affectionetly known as the "honey bun." it was a toyota corolla hatchback painted a sort of goldish color. You could almost picture a huge pad of melting butter on top......

Quote: fantom Huh? ....Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that Cirrus' are fine airplanes and they can obviously beat a Mooney any day in many categories, but speed, useful load, and maintenance costs are not three of them. You are so right, Jim. Cirrus maintenance cost are much higher, as are insurance costs, and trying to find people to work on them, or heaven forbid, repair the body, is quite a challenge. I'll take a '80 J over an '05 SR 20 any day of the week.

Hi all- Does anyone know what was changed in the latest firmware upgrade (3.20) for the JPI EDM 730/830? I'm going to upgrade the firmware later today, but I'm interested in knowing what they changed, and I can't find an updates list or version history anywhere. Thanks! -JoB

Quote: Seth What is the shortest field and most narrow field you have comfortably (or not so comfortably) operated from? I'm based at Freeway airport in Maryland - W00. The runway is 2400' x 40.' The field closest to my home KGAI - Montgomery County / Gaitherburg Airpark is 4000' x 75.' I trained there initially, and then also trained at LZU - Lawrenceville in Georgia, as well as PDK - Peachtree - Dekalb in Georgia (four runways varying in length and width - but large - way more than I needed for the 172 at the time). I base the aircraft at Freeway because the people are great (Stan, Tommy, Mike), there's a Mooney Service Center on the field, and its less expensive for a comperable tie down. The drive is about 20 minutes longer each way though from my home. The reason I ask is that I may be traveling to a location where the runway is 2000' x 25.' I'm not worried so much at the 2000' distance, but instead the 25' width. It's paved (I've never flown out of a grass strip) and as long as I operate out of where I am based (Freeway) its not something I'm too worried about, but I want to know the smallest airports Mooney pilots have operated from. I have heard of but have never seen in person a 20' wide strip that was privately owned and paved. From what I have noticed while flying, the more narrow the runway, for some reason the better you are at tracking the centerline I fly a '67 M20F with a three bladed prop and a relatively young engine. -Seth

shortest I've operated from are (and not looking to win any contests here...): Cottage Grove, OR- about 3000' Ashland, OR- 3600' Palo Alto, CA- 2400' and, of course, Lakeport, CA- 3500' My first approach to Ashland, Or (by all rights a loooong runway for a mooney), I was at 90kts over the numbers and floated more than half way down the runway, never touching down, stuck in ground effect. Ended up going around! My wife asked me why I did that (referring to why didn't we stop)... my answer: "those (go-arounds) are free, brakes aren't!!!!"... her eye rolling was enough to tell me that she was on to my game. I flew better numbers the next time around and was off at the half way mark... -JoB

Quote: Cruiser I don't see icing as an all or nothing situation that is getting described here. What about all the low overcast days that you can't fly because it requires a climb through 4,000' or 5,000' layer to get on top? What about those IFR days that ATC wants to give you a tour of the local countryside with vectors to the final approach? What about those 200 or 300 mile trips that start in IFR and end in beautiful VFR conditions? And finally what about those unforeseen and unforecast conditions that deteriorated more quickly than your flight into a headwind allowed you to get home before the ice got there? None of these are "launch into known icing conditons" but every one of them is a real possibility to happen. Having TKS with the reassurance that it will give me the margin to get out or through icing (should it occur) sure would be a comfort I could be very happy with. (read, wish I had TKS on my M20J)

I don't know about you guys, but here's how I deal with icing in the mooney: A) If the temperatures/cloud layers are such that icing could exist during my climbout and/or approach: I won't go (or I'll have a CAVU alternate in the case of the approach at my destination). I check the NOAA map for my route of flight prior to departure, then get the closest METAR's and TAF's to verify cloud layers, etc, and look for potential "problem areas" C) 1800WXBRIEF (don't skip this step) D) Once airborne and on my way, I continue to monitor the TAF's and weather (XM weather... amazing and affordable to anyone that owns an airplane. Don't go another day without it if you haven't taken the plunge yet). E) On Route: I know the icing levels because of my pre flight planning. So if I'm flying at an altitude that is in the potential icing realm, I won't fly into visible moisture. Period. It's not like you can't see it coming! F) Never climb through a cloud layer because you think you can "get above it." (unless you just descended into the layer and you KNOW where the top is. G) The best two ways to get out of icing conditions are to A) turn around or (if able) descend to warmer temperatures. H) If you launched into IFR conditions in the wintertime, you may just get what you deserve. Icing is no joke. It's not a layer to "bust through" either. Be safe... don't mess with it, stay clear, descend to warmer air and flight plan to not require putting yourself in that position. If you have the weeping wing stuff, that's great, but just remember, that they aren't as effective as boots, and you're playing with fire (ice?) when you start making dedicated runs into those conditions. Remember: if you have all the time in the world, the best way to travel is by a GA airplane... that way you can WX CNX without worry....

Quote: KLRDMD When I had a known ice Bravo, I didn't launch into known icing conditions. I didn't make any flights with the KI that I wouldn't have made without it, so after a couple of years I ended up selling the Bravo. I decided, for me, that KI conditions require a turboprop.

Welcome to the JPI 8/730 club! you're going to love it (I know I do!)!!!!

It seems like this question comes up about every 2-3 months, and everyone has a different opinion on how to do it... I normally fly between 8k and 11k in my 201.. at those altitudes, with a WOT and 2500 RPM, I'm normally making between 60-65% HP. So.... I normally fly at PEAK EGT. If I go LOP, I'm losing horsepower. If I go ROP, I lose fuel. At peak, below 65% HP, I'm seeing CHT's in the 310-330 region and I know that my ICP's aren't extreme enough to hurt anything. Below 8K, I run about 25 degrees LOP. But I normally don't cruise at 3K or below (When I'm that low, I've already richened up the mix significantly for landing, or I'm full rich (or close to it) for T/O). Like most of the articles mention: stay out of the red zone and you're pretty much free to handle your situation however you deem best. -JoB

Looks like he was a young pilot to me (2007 grad of USAFA means finished flight school last year, and probably still in training, or very junior in the BONE). My guess is that the pilot got his instrument ticket through military equivilence and probably had little (if any) IFR time in his mooney. I would chalk this one up to inexperience and a bad call to execute an approach into icing conditions. Very, very sad. In response to military experience leading to accidents: I would say that it's like anything in aviation. You learn, you become certified or get your ticket, then you REALLY learn, and hope that your skills develop before your luck runs out. There is no substitute for experience, both on the ground before the flight, during and in the post flight portions (being self-critical of the entire flight... radio comms that could be smoother, cockpit management, actual aviating, wx decisions, etc). In summary: being a current or ex military pilot doesn't make one safer or more dangerous, it is just a pathway to aviation experience. It is ultimately up to each individual pilot to continually ensure they are up to the challenge of performing each flight, safely, that they embark on. I think that's probably why you see military guys like George and I on this board: not only because we're "mooniacs," but because we're here to learn as well.... -JoB

I wouldn't be too critical of the more modern aircraft... the Cirrus SR20 is a very nice plane. It may be heresy on this board to say this, but if I were to take my pick between my 1980 mooney, and a 2005 SR20, I'd take the SR20. higher useful load, similar cruise speeds, and a newer airplane (which means less maintenance).... hard to beat that. But the fact of the matter is that the cirrus aircraft still cost 25-75% more than a mooney (and that makes them out of my price range). But like George and Parker have said: you get what you pay for. Spend time looking, get a great pre-buy/annual and be prepared to walk away (potentially with some cost already sunk into the plane to get it inspected). -JoB

if it makes you feel better... mine looks very similar....

The individual POH per aircraft is required for each airframe post 1978 (or so the FAR/AIM handbook states... I saw that the actual FAR was posted here already). If you lose it, Mooney can send you a new, recertified manual complete with whatever weight and balance/equipment your individual aircraft left the factory floor with (they have these records... I know, I've partaken of the service for my '80 M20J!). Cost for the new manual is about $150, although I'm wondering if they can still issue these with the downsizing and all. For those that are curious, it's about 150 pages, including an overview section, systems section, normal procedures, emergency procedures, weight and balance (specific to that individual airplane) and a section for additional equipment. The manual is very similar to the NATOPS manuals I use in the Navy for the F-18 in both layout and wording. I keep it behind the pilots seat and it never leaves the aircraft. I bought a second POH for a 1980 M20J that isn't airframe specific (ie it is the exact same manual, but doesn't include the weight and balance or special equipment sections). I keep that at home for systems questions when I have them (it only cost 10 bucks on e-bay). I also purchased one of the "surecheck" checklists and use that as a "pocket check list" which comes with me when I get to my destination, and also stays strapped to my kneeboard (just in case... hey... they don't call me JoB for nothing!). Of course, memorized procedures are a mandatory, as well... if they aren't memorized, you might just have the rest of your life to study them.... -JoB

Quote: DaV8or I flew my Mooney to Santa Maria for Thanksgiving with my Mother in law. Wonderful weather and true magic carpet ride. The S Tec 30 rocks! Here's a picture of 89M in back of the Raddison hotel. It was the first time I have put the cover on, so it took a little head scratching and I think the front straps are supposed to have some sort of snaps to fasten them. I got by by threading the front strap between the fuselage and the gear doors. Tight fit, but it works. I'll have to call Bruce's and ask about the snaps.